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Post by elmer on Oct 13, 2021 15:18:25 GMT
How does the Everdrive recognize that the mapper should be used - based on ROM size ? (I recall we disassembled a fair bit of it, but I don't recall seeing that section) I'm not sure how Krikzz's OS works for that, I don't remember ever looking at that section of his code ... I tried to avoid any of his stuff that was written in CC65! As for TEOS, yeah, I'm just looking at the ROM size when it is loaded off of the SD card. IIRC I'm only looking specifically for the 2.5MB size, because that's the only HuCard that uses it. If homebrew folks really are going to start writing huge HuCard games (why?!?!), then I might need to change that.
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Post by turboxray on Oct 13, 2021 16:37:03 GMT
I thought the Analogue Duo said it would accept the SF2 hucard? I think the Laser Active won't, but that's a pretty special edge case. If you have the money for a Laser Active, you probably had a regular PCE as well haha. Or, you're just out of luck.
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Post by turboxray on Oct 13, 2021 16:48:25 GMT
If homebrew folks really are going to start writing huge HuCard games (why?!?!), then I might need to change that. Because it has a certain appeal and charm to it. Why do anything retro dev nowadays? Same reason. Logistically though, If you're aiming for an audience with real machines, hucard definitely is a larger audience. I remember like 10 years ago a resurgence of retro gamers getting into PCE stuff for the first time, started with the hucard only systems because the Duos were too expensive to just jump in. I doubt many took that leap to CD addon/Duo afterwards.
PCEAS needs a small update to create a symbol table entry for stuff placed in SF2 bank though (and rom bank cap removed for that type of rom build). I mean, it doesn't NEED it, as I've done SF2 related dev work out it - but it'd be nice for those not using such tools chains and even HuC.
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Post by dshadoff on Oct 13, 2021 16:52:55 GMT
I thought the Analogue Duo said it would accept the SF2 hucard? I think the Laser Active won't, but that's a pretty special edge case. If you have the money for a Laser Active, you probably had a regular PCE as well haha. Or, you're just out of luck. SF2, they said yes. Everdrive, no response (but unrelated parties speculated).
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Post by elmer on Oct 13, 2021 17:50:55 GMT
Because it has a certain appeal and charm to it. Why do anything retro dev nowadays? Same reason. If someone was developing a professional-quality game that really needed that amount of memory, then sure, I absolutely get it. If someone is producing a bloated-monstrosity that just wastes space because the costs are so cheap these days, and primarily motivated by the desire to put their name on something that "is the biggest HuCard game ever made" ... then sorry, but I have a real difficulty respecting that mindset. PCEAS needs a small update to create a symbol table entry for stuff placed in SF2 bank though (and rom bank cap removed for that type of rom build). I mean, it doesn't NEED it, as I've done SF2 related dev work out it - but it'd be nice for those not using such tools chains and even HuC. There's nothing wrong with adding the capability to PCEAS, but I really don't think that it's needed, because any game that large really should (IMHO) be using an asset-management system of some sorts, and can easily be built to use the runtime lookup of assets. That kind of engine needs far less than the 1MB of code that PCEAS already supports ... just look at the Arcade Card games for examples of that.
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Post by turboxray on Oct 14, 2021 5:29:24 GMT
There's nothing wrong with adding the capability to PCEAS, but I really don't think that it's needed, because any game that large really should (IMHO) be using an asset-management system of some sorts, and can easily be built to use the runtime lookup of assets. What could be more easier than include "some_asm" or incbin "some_bin" as-is, and having a lda #bank_ext(label) and lda #bank_intra(label)? You literally cannot get any easier than that haha. Anything else, and you're just making more work for yourself.
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TailChao
Gun-headed
I Must Eat Muffin Gear.
Posts: 68
Fave PCE Game Overall: Bonk's Adventure
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Post by TailChao on Oct 14, 2021 15:25:48 GMT
What could be more easier than include "some_asm" or incbin "some_bin" as-is, and having a lda #bank_ext(label) and lda #bank_intra(label)? You literally cannot get any easier than that haha. Anything else, and you're just making more work for yourself. Sort of.
I think what Elmer means is when you're managing a large scale project, not just in ROM size but with hundreds of assets all with the potential to cross reference each other, you're much better off doing that through asset or resource tags instead of absolute addresses. In that case, your resources are also likely to be added on using an external tool which runs post-assembly anyway.
Y'all also have the option to use WLA-DX and define your own memory segmentation, and / or make up whatever hardware you like. The latter is kinda the perk of using cards and cartridges, right?
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Post by turboxray on Oct 14, 2021 16:59:15 GMT
What could be more easier than include "some_asm" or incbin "some_bin" as-is, and having a lda #bank_ext(label) and lda #bank_intra(label)? You literally cannot get any easier than that haha. Anything else, and you're just making more work for yourself. Sort of. I think what Elmer means is when you're managing a large scale project, not just in ROM size but with hundreds of assets all with the potential to cross reference each other, you're much better off doing that through asset or resource tags instead of absolute addresses. In that case, your resources are also likely to be added on using an external tool which runs post-assembly anyway.
It's not just about loading absolute addresses, but actually for assisting in building tables, trees, etc. My WIP game engine: Everything is built with tables and lots of indirection; enemylist->enemytable->enemystate->enemyframe->list of meta to real cell definitions. Same for the music engine(the song data->pattern->etc), same for the object map, etc. All the indirection/tables/trees/etc are still built with the aid of the assembler. Matter of fact, I have lots of python code that takes external assets, converts them to whatever, and generates PCEAS compatible asm files with data/code for objects for the assembler to use. I don't have to worry about alignment, specific addresses, exporting generated symbol tables; if the assembler understands it then it packs it in for me. Why work harder when you can leverage the assembler - this makes no difference if the project is straight non-mapper PCE game or something like SF2. I even have specialized macros for optimizing sample data of 116 chucks into 128 segments.. that leverages the assembler (which again, is from external content converted into asm importable files). If I didn't, I have to manage ALL assets external (because it doesn't mix).. and then export an translation file/table. I've done both ways.
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TailChao
Gun-headed
I Must Eat Muffin Gear.
Posts: 68
Fave PCE Game Overall: Bonk's Adventure
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Post by TailChao on Oct 16, 2021 16:44:37 GMT
I don't have to worry about alignment, specific addresses, exporting generated symbol tables; if the assembler understands it then it packs it in for me. Why work harder when you can leverage the assembler - this makes no difference if the project is straight non-mapper PCE game or something like SF2. Oh, I totally agree here - if the setup is doing what you want, then by all means use it. That's the most important feature. The asset or resource management system paradigm has benefits if your data need to be compressed or stored on a completely different medium (i.e. SPI Flash, SD Card, or CD-ROM) or may pivot to these in the future, which is why I've structured my own tools this way. We seem to have lost the original topic, so - J.J. Squawkers for SuperGrafx + Arcade Card.
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Post by gredler on Oct 16, 2021 19:40:25 GMT
Whilst I love Hit the Ice and TV sports hockey, the control of the former and performance of the later both leave something to be desired. With the power of the cpu and things we saw in later action games I find it hard to believe a fast pace tightly controlled hockey game couldn't have been made on the system. A port of any EA NHL game, or a upgrade of Blades of Steel would've been incredible especially with the 5 player tap. 2 on 2 pvp or full 5 player team vs cpu?! It probably comes as no surprise to those who know me here that upgrade port of Blades of Steel would be a dream project and something I would have loved to have back in yonder years.
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bonkzonkmcgonk
Gun-headed
Posts: 54
Fave PCE Shooter: Air Zonk
Fave PCE Platformer: Dragon's Curse
Fave PCE Game Overall: Bonk's Adventure & Revenge
Fave PCE RPG: Legend of Valkyrie
Currently Playing: Son Son II
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Post by bonkzonkmcgonk on Oct 16, 2021 23:06:53 GMT
Whilst I love Hit the Ice and TV sports hockey, the control of the former and performance of the later both leave something to be desired. With the power of the cpu and things we saw in later action games I find it hard to believe a fast pace tightly controlled hockey game couldn't have been made on the system. A port of any EA NHL game, or a upgrade of Blades of Steel would've been incredible especially with the 5 player tap. 2 on 2 pvp or full 5 player team vs cpu?! It probably comes as no surprise to those who know me here that upgrade port of Blades of Steel would be a dream project and something I would have loved to have back in yonder years. Another great sports game would be WWF Royal Rumble or Raw. Or any good wrestling game for the system really. I find the Fire Pro games to be too frustrating to play and Battle Royale although the graphics are nice is basically kusoge.
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nicole
Gun-headed
Posts: 50
Fave PCE Shooter: Magical Chase
Fave PCE Platformer: Legendary Axe II
Fave PCE RPG: Ys III
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Post by nicole on Oct 17, 2021 0:26:47 GMT
I thought the Analogue Duo said it would accept the SF2 hucard? I think the Laser Active won't, but that's a pretty special edge case. If you have the money for a Laser Active, you probably had a regular PCE as well haha. Or, you're just out of luck. Totally irrelevant, but I just went and tried the SF2 HuCard on my LaserActive and it had no issues.
The Arcade Card Pro, on the other hand, has gotten stuck in the PAC before for me. So I guess it's right on the edge, maybe there are different tolerances and sometimes it fits and sometimes it doesn't.
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Post by dshadoff on Oct 17, 2021 1:30:56 GMT
You're not dreaming. My micrometer says: (Note - the thicknes is not entirely uniform; I have provided the range Street Fighter 2 | 3.93 - 4.00mm | Ten no Koe Bank | 3.98 - 4.10mm | Populous | 4.09 - 4.19mm | Turbo Everdrive (no USB, no plastic cover) | 4.5 - 4.8mm | Arcade Card Pro | 4.87 - 5.02mm | Turbo Everdrive with USB | 6.7mm | Turbo Everdrive with plastic cover | 6.5mm - 7.5mm (at the screws) |
The first three seem pretty close, just a slight tolerance gap... the TurboEverdrive was always going to be different... but I didn't expect the AC Pro card to be a full millimeter thicker.
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Post by spenoza on Oct 20, 2021 13:53:11 GMT
Back more to the immediate topic, Konami, Natsume, Sunsoft, and others made a lot of action platformers with a very particular feel. Characters were all a uniform height and size, platforming mechanics had a certain similar heft to them: think Batman, Shadow of the Ninja, Castlevania, Journey to Silius, Shatterhand, Kabuki Quantum Fighter, etc... I realize that this was born in part from the limitations of the platform, but lots of those games were fun, if predictable. The PCE did not get a lot of games that could be considered of that template, or even descended from that template. I would love to have seen some games that used an engine that felt connected to that platforming heritage in some way.
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Post by spenoza on Oct 21, 2021 15:01:03 GMT
You know, there's another genre under-represented on PC Engine - the run n gun. There's an OK number of overhead titles, but very few truly good side-scrolling ones. The PC Engine doesn't have a top-tier side-scrolling run n gun. And there's no technical reason the PCE couldn't produce a good one. Lesser systems have done pretty well. I think there's room for some homebrew devs to work in this space. Run n guns don't have to be mechanically complex to be good. Unfortunately, graphics do play a big role, and very good art assets tend to be the thorn in the side of most homebrew projects.
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