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Post by spenoza on Dec 12, 2019 2:51:02 GMT
The other problem is that modern flash carts aren’t exactly super durable electronics. They will likely die before these already ancient consoles do. Price of being a niche product. And many people buy new and sell the old to make some money back. I mean, I get a new phone every 3 years, and my new phone is usually a gen behind. I’m also a systems librarian, so I know all about newer not necessarily being better. But the way I see it, more and newer alternatives is ALWAYS better, because more choices means a better chance of finding exactly what YOU want.
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Post by SignOfZeta on Dec 12, 2019 3:07:00 GMT
Is anyone excited about this but decided to wait for the one after it? Is that kind of restraint common? Sure it is, but people who are really into something are going to want to see what's new (assuming they can afford it). Others will likely only buy something new if their old unit is giving them problems, or the new features are compelling - like replacing an old Flash cart which has a 4 megabit limit, can only hold one game at a time, doesn't support the SuperCD RAM, and needs to be programmed via the parallel port. After all, we *are* on a message board which caters to a system which itself isn't exactly the newest technology... Hey, I know what *my* PC Engine is made out of...but the extremely fluid definition of “a Sega Genesis” or whatever is becoming a new thing to me. So many people playing custom ROMs on weird zombie hardware. I still jerk off manually, as the saying goes. I only ever had one PCE flash card and the POS died so I quit. If I can’t afford a game I’ll never fucking play (be honest, let’s be honest if nothing else) then for some reason I don’t have the drive to put it on a flash card with 1000 other titles I’ll also never play. Essentially turning your game collection into a list of files. I think there is some validity to just taking a game out of the box and putting it in. Paying attention to every last detail of the process. The kind of thing you may have learned from horse ownership. Nobody says “Gah! I love my horse but I had to sell it because I hated brushing it every day.” Brushing a horse is like blowing on cartridges. It brings you closer to the real ish. Have you ever seen a car stereo competition? The really insane modern ones? There is no music, they just play test tones. Nobody can be in the car because they would die. Keeping the doors tight is an issue. Obviously this is fuct, and at some point some backward jerk like me said “Hey guys, do you ever get the feeling we’ve lost the plot?” and everyone in that scene branded those people haters and now they are gone and the test tones are louder proving that Luddite was on the wrong side of history. I see a bit of that here. You’ll never love Star Wars in 4K as much as you loved it on VHS.
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Post by dshadoff on Dec 12, 2019 3:23:01 GMT
While I fundamentally agree with what you're saying, I also see a need for new hardware to: - ensure that failing hardware is renewed (re-caps) - ensure the availability of playability (HDMI out, as CRT availability dwindles) - backup real games, because bitrot attacked 1-2% of my HuCards
And of course, enhance playability... I will continue to work on modern substitute hardware to replace old things which don't just show their age, but rather taunt you with it, like: - a Memory Base 128 which drains batteries and loses data before you can get back to playing the games again - mice with cords and balls (dust-gatherers) which - even then - are scarce and expensive, for the limited games that can take advantage of them - things which needed batteries back in the 90's, but have non-battery versions these days (same goes for cords)
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Post by SignOfZeta on Dec 12, 2019 4:10:20 GMT
I can see all those points but I have a question. If 1-3% of your cards have rotted;
How many of them are PC Kid 2?
Can you actually tell when playing or is it just that they failed a hash?
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Post by dshadoff on Dec 12, 2019 4:27:03 GMT
PC Genjin 2 / Bonk's Revenge were 2 of the bitrots (of about 9 or so).
It really doesn't matter whether I personally encountered a problem on every one of them, because I hadn't yet completed most of them, so hadn't truly exercised them; the result is that the hardware is decaying, and I want to preserve it.
...But yeah, I still encountered problems on at least one (seemingly random crashes or graphical glitches), and needed to figure out what piece of hardware was failing - machine ? game ? contacts ? power ? capacitors ?
And since I basically don't trust rips on the 'net, I reripped until I found 2 independent rips which matched for each.
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Post by SignOfZeta on Dec 12, 2019 5:43:36 GMT
I ask because it seems like almost any loss of data integrity would completely bork ROMs this small. There’s not a lot of non-critical data in a 512kb game, although I guess it is still mostly graphics so maybe they’d still run OK with bits flipped.
How bad was the image of a fuxored PC Kid 2? Did it run on a PCE?
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Post by dshadoff on Dec 13, 2019 22:53:07 GMT
I ask because it seems like almost any loss of data integrity would completely bork ROMs this small. There’s not a lot of non-critical data in a 512kb game, although I guess it is still mostly graphics so maybe they’d still run OK with bits flipped. How bad was the image of a fuxored PC Kid 2? Did it run on a PCE? It’s not necessarily as obvious as you might think. Probably only 25% of the ROM is code, with the rest being mostly sound and graphics. Depending on the game, there is sometimes unused space, debug or hidden functionality, developer messages, and sometimes garbage. And even when the true assets are affected by bitrot, you would need to actually access them - some situations are rarely accessed or occur at the end of the game, so you don’t necessarily hit them in until you really play hard. This was about a year ago, but the PC Kid 2 image (both US and Japanese) were the more heavily-corrupted of the bunch. I can’t quantify anymore though because I disposed of them. One of them showed the problem almost immediately but the other one didn’t.
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Post by SignOfZeta on Dec 13, 2019 23:00:42 GMT
So even with your advanced diagnostic methods and large collection you’ve still never actually experienced bit rot mid-game?
I think I can continue ignoring it for the rest of my days then.
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Post by dshadoff on Dec 13, 2019 23:04:38 GMT
So even with your advanced diagnostic methods and large collection you’ve still never actually experienced bit rot mid-game? I think I can continue ignoring it for the rest of my days then. But I just said that I did on one of them... And I should mention that I don’t play the games as often or as thoroughly as many people here, since I spend more time digging into the system internals.
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Post by gredler on Dec 14, 2019 1:08:25 GMT
I always tell people the more I work I games the less I play them. That makes it even more justifiable to buy collectibles. Being able to pop a game on when some suggests it is fantastic and my favorite part of owning the TED. I remember when OverRide was suggested as game of the month. I looked into buying it and it was more expensive than the TED I already owned. I played through that game for that game of the month, and played it one more time since then. I still got a ton of enjoyment from playing the game, despite not having the ritual of taking the game down off the shelf and putting it in, so I was glad to have the TED for playing roms at that time. I do love taking games off the shelf, but the value of both seems inarguable
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 14:28:03 GMT
Signofzeta yells at cloud.
What's with the hostility with new devices? PCE CD is great until it it's not working properly, then you spend more time fiddling with the laser than actually playing.
I for one would love to transform the CD library into a "list of files", I have yet to do so only because the existing device couldn't just pretend to be CD hardware and had to have everything but the kitchen sink. You're seeing this in an odd angle, people who care to play games will play them regardless of what machine or media it runs on as long as it's accurate. Blowing on a NES cartridge isn't part of completing SMB3.
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Post by SignOfZeta on Dec 16, 2019 21:30:49 GMT
I for one would love to transform the CD library into a "list of files" Have you ever been to a concert or do you just download them? Btw, “What’s with the hate?” is starting to become a very old thing. I explain what was up with it. I didn’t just write “flash cards suck” over and over. In fact, I never even said something so declarative. My grievances are what I actually wrote and you translated to loyal or disloyal towards flash cards. If you don’t figure out what’s up I can’t help you. Try not distilling everything you see into the most simple terms “for” and “against” and maybe the details will show though. I’m not “against” flash cards, I just question the obedience to what someone else declares progress. I got some good answers: Flash cards break way more often than real cards so you have to replace them. You can flip the old ones. Some people hate paper and any tactile connection to the code. Some people love updating their phones, even though those updates eventually kill the phone’s CPU with so much code you go buy another phone. Therefore a TED is a smashing deal compared to what they are used to.
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Post by bigusschmuck on Dec 16, 2019 22:55:33 GMT
How about making flash carts that don't break? Hmm? Or better yet just do an update to what you got to play cd games? It can't be all that difficult to do. Not anti flash carts or anything, just if you are going to spend the money on one, at least make it with quality parts instead of going the walmart route. Just my 2 cents.
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sarge
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 104
Fave PCE Shooter: Soldier Blade
Fave PCE Game Overall: Dracula X: Rondo of Blood
Fave PCE RPG: Dungeon Explorer II
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Post by sarge on Dec 17, 2019 2:12:16 GMT
The longevity factor is more that these are a niche product, not something mass-produced like an original cartridge. Adding to that, the original cartridges are a lot simpler devices (typically just a mask ROM and some random supporting circuitry), so there's a lot less that can go wrong. Flash carts, on the other hand, include lots of components like an FPGA, memory (flash or RAM), SD card slots, and so on. There are a lot of components that can fail.
That being said, I have quite a few, and none have failed yet. The only one I've ever had an issue with was the EverDrive N8, and that's mostly with the last firmware update that adds some features, but doesn't play nicely with most of my NES systems. The hardware itself is just fine.
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Post by SignOfZeta on Dec 18, 2019 4:45:52 GMT
How about making flash carts that don't break? Hmm? Or better yet just do an update to what you got to play cd games? It can't be all that difficult to do. Not anti flash carts or anything, just if you are going to spend the money on one, at least make it with quality parts instead of going the walmart route. Just my 2 cents. I don't know about that. The chips being used are decades newer than what they are being used on. The companies making them are little more than a kid in a garage, mail ordering PCBs from a factory they've never seen. The "correct" components may not exist and some company too poor to even sell a case with the thing isn't going to go R&Ding new chips. Also, you make CDROM seem like its just some locked out feature that has to be turned on. You're asking for the HuCARD slot to do things it never did with an actual CDROM2. That's a pretty big job. We'll probably get it some day but its going to take a lot of work.
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