dire51
Deep Blooper
Posts: 19
Fave PCE Shooter: Soldier Blade
Fave PCE Platformer: Bonk's Adventure
Fave PCE Game Overall: Splatterhouse
Fave PCE RPG: Ys Book I & II
Currently Playing: Mr. Heli
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Post by dire51 on Apr 13, 2022 23:29:17 GMT
I know what everyone thinks of Deep Blue. I admit to having a weird nostalgic attachment to it, but I can look at it objectively and say "yeah, this game is terrible." However, I can't help but to feel that somewhere deep inside of it is a decent game. If I had the coding skills, I'd attempt to hack it to, well... make it playable, for starters. I'd actually love to give it an entire revamp, along the lines of the Super Pitfall 30th Anniversary Edition that was released a few years back, but that's likely never going to happen.
I'm probably the only person on the face of the planet to feel this way, but what about everyone else? If such a revamp was ever made, would you still be opposed to playing Deep Blue?
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nopepper
Deep Blooper
Posts: 21
Fave PCE Shooter: Lords of Thunder
Fave PCE Platformer: Legendary Axe
Fave PCE Game Overall: Dracula X
Fave PCE RPG: Ys I & II
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Post by nopepper on Apr 14, 2022 21:32:59 GMT
I'm curious; what would you do from a design standpoint to make Deep Blue playable? How would you revamp it?
I've only tried Deep Blue briefly through an Everdrive, so I can't say I've given it a fair chance. I generally try to not be tainted by other's opinions (I love Silver Surfer, for example), but in this case, I feel like Deep Blue's reputation influenced my decision to just move on quickly. I do like the setting and atmosphere, so there might be something there worth saving - but then, there are already surreal shooters available for this console that have those weird-y vibes, and are already playable (see Lost Sunheart). So I guess ultimately the main question to ask is: why?
Also, I believe it was the brothers duomazov site that showed a lot of praise for Deep Blue, so there are fans out there. From what I recall, the trick is to understand that the game is more about dodging than actual shooting - which I guess some might find appealing. For me, the shooting aspect is one of the reasons I like shooters, you know?
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dire51
Deep Blooper
Posts: 19
Fave PCE Shooter: Soldier Blade
Fave PCE Platformer: Bonk's Adventure
Fave PCE Game Overall: Splatterhouse
Fave PCE RPG: Ys Book I & II
Currently Playing: Mr. Heli
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Post by dire51 on Apr 14, 2022 21:46:50 GMT
Exactly. That's why I like shooters too. Why would I do it? Because it was a game I always wanted to like - like you, I like the setting and the atmosphere - and felt a bit rooked when I finally was able to play it. I kind of feel the same way about Curse on the Mega Drive, too.
As far as what I'd do to make it playable, I'm thinking quality of life changes for starters: you don't lose your power-ups when you get hit, reduce the hitbox and scale back on some of the seemingly random elements (like the unpredictable fish swarms). This would make it easier in the end, so I'd have to do something to bring the challenge back up. Don't want to make it too easy, after all.
Interesting to know there are fans out there, I thought for sure Deep Blue was pretty universally hated.
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keithcourage
Punkic Cyborg
https://www.facebook.com/turbografxfan/
Posts: 231
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Post by keithcourage on Apr 15, 2022 19:58:13 GMT
I actually don't think it's a bad game just not a good one either. The only thing I'd change is how you loose your power-ups so easily. Maybe make it something more like Lords of Thunder where you don't loose all your power ups in one hit or possibly have a shield power up to avoid loosing your powered up weapon.
The healing of your ship mechanic helps offset the impossible hits by enemies in my book. Everyone talks about how bad the enemy patterns are but I actually like them. They fit the under water theme well as many different forms of sealife actually stay in very specific patterns at times. Does this remind you of any particular part of the game?
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Post by spenoza on Apr 15, 2022 21:00:42 GMT
Graphically the game is adequate, but mechanically it's a hot mess. Getting hit has too high a penalty, it's too easy to get hit, it's too hard to eliminate threats, and it's too hard to dodge. Deep blue really throws too much crap at you while depriving you of adequate firepower to manage it. Even if you're powered up all the way it still takes too much concentrated fire to clear a path. In totality the game is just poorly designed. It's a fine idea in theory. It just didn't manage any of the key design goals. Other than it being a neat idea it doesn't really have anything to recommend it. It would basically have to have all its numeric data retooled to be mediocre.
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dire51
Deep Blooper
Posts: 19
Fave PCE Shooter: Soldier Blade
Fave PCE Platformer: Bonk's Adventure
Fave PCE Game Overall: Splatterhouse
Fave PCE RPG: Ys Book I & II
Currently Playing: Mr. Heli
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Post by dire51 on Apr 16, 2022 15:42:38 GMT
I actually don't think it's a bad game just not a good one either. The only thing I'd change is how you loose your power-ups so easily. Maybe make it something more like Lords of Thunder where you don't loose all your power ups in one hit or possibly have a shield power up to avoid loosing your powered up weapon. That's definitely something I'd like to see addressed. The healing of your ship mechanic helps offset the impossible hits by enemies in my book. Everyone talks about how bad the enemy patterns are but I actually like them. They fit the under water theme well as many different forms of sealife actually stay in very specific patterns at times. Does this remind you of any particular part of the game? It does, and if nothing else, I can appreciate what Pack-In-Video was trying to do in that regard. However, I don't think the ship healing mechanic really works, since most times you're barely given a chance to recover before another fish slams into you at full speed. Graphically the game is adequate, but mechanically it's a hot mess. Getting hit has too high a penalty, it's too easy to get hit, it's too hard to eliminate threats, and it's too hard to dodge. Deep blue really throws too much crap at you while depriving you of adequate firepower to manage it. Even if you're powered up all the way it still takes too much concentrated fire to clear a path. In totality the game is just poorly designed. It's a fine idea in theory. It just didn't manage any of the key design goals. Other than it being a neat idea it doesn't really have anything to recommend it. It would basically have to have all its numeric data retooled to be mediocre. Even with a total revamp, I could never see Deep Blue becoming anywhere close to great. If nothing else, I'd just like to see it rebalanced to be a little more fair to the player.
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Post by dshadoff on Apr 16, 2022 17:33:48 GMT
In totality the game is just poorly designed. It's a fine idea in theory. It just didn't manage any of the key design goals. I don’t know about that… It seems to me that one of the principal design goals of all Pack-in-Video games is to be a big disappointment to the purchaser, especially with regard to game mechanics.
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Deep Blue
Apr 16, 2022 18:59:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by spenoza on Apr 16, 2022 18:59:40 GMT
In totality the game is just poorly designed. It's a fine idea in theory. It just didn't manage any of the key design goals. I don’t know about that… It seems to me that one of the principal design goals of all Pack-in-Video games is to be a big disappointment to the purchaser, especially with regard to game mechanics. Let me correct myself, then. It just didn’t manage any of the key hypothetical design goals. Because it’s very rare someone sets out to make a shitty game, excepting possibly Desert Bus.
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nopepper
Deep Blooper
Posts: 21
Fave PCE Shooter: Lords of Thunder
Fave PCE Platformer: Legendary Axe
Fave PCE Game Overall: Dracula X
Fave PCE RPG: Ys I & II
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Post by nopepper on Apr 17, 2022 0:14:02 GMT
I was feeling masochistic, so decided to give this a go, on a Friday night no less. I think with a little effort this could be somewhat enjoyable. Just don't take away speed when you get hit, and only power down your shot after 2-3 hits. Also, give some invincibility time after getting hit. Finally, adjust your hit points accordingly to balance it out against all the other changes. I was able to make it to stage 3 with minimal effort, so this doesn't seem to be impossible as is; it just feels like haphazard level design that just grinds out the fun. I think with these adjustments, the game will be less annoying - just not sure if it would make it too easy, or save it from mediocrity. Even then, I still like the atmosphere and level 2's neon color were actually pretty, so there's that. Not sure if it's worth anybody's time to turn a notoriously bad game into something mediocre. Here's a link to the aforementioned duomazov review: web.archive.org/web/20160324215237/http://www.thebrothersduomazov.com/2009/02/deep-blue.html. I found anything but the default pellet gun useless, so interesting to read that, according to that review, a powered up green weapon is the way to go.
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Post by ccovell on Apr 17, 2022 1:25:06 GMT
I did once hack Deep Blue to improve the speed of your ship, so try making these changes in a hex editor: fc /b "Deep Blue (J).pce" "Deep Blue (J-SpeedHack).pce" Comparing files Deep Blue (J).pce and DEEP BLUE (J-SPEEDHACK).PCE 00002C7D: 03 06 00003F42: 03 05 00004AE9: 02 05
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dire51
Deep Blooper
Posts: 19
Fave PCE Shooter: Soldier Blade
Fave PCE Platformer: Bonk's Adventure
Fave PCE Game Overall: Splatterhouse
Fave PCE RPG: Ys Book I & II
Currently Playing: Mr. Heli
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Post by dire51 on Apr 17, 2022 16:25:55 GMT
I don’t know about that… It seems to me that one of the principal design goals of all Pack-in-Video games is to be a big disappointment to the purchaser, especially with regard to game mechanics. I'll admit, I also also have a bit of weird nostalgia for Predator (NES), and I don't mind the NES or PCE Knight Rider, or Die Hard (PCE) for that matter, so one's mileage may vary, I guess. Let me correct myself, then. It just didn’t manage any of the key hypothetical design goals. Because it’s very rare someone sets out to make a shitty game, excepting possibly Desert Bus. Would the Famicom game Takeshi no Chōsenjō count too? I was feeling masochistic, so decided to give this a go, on a Friday night no less. I think with a little effort this could be somewhat enjoyable. Just don't take away speed when you get hit, and only power down your shot after 2-3 hits. Also, give some invincibility time after getting hit. Finally, adjust your hit points accordingly to balance it out against all the other changes. I was able to make it to stage 3 with minimal effort, so this doesn't seem to be impossible as is; it just feels like haphazard level design that just grinds out the fun. I think with these adjustments, the game will be less annoying - just not sure if it would make it too easy, or save it from mediocrity. Even then, I still like the atmosphere and level 2's neon color were actually pretty, so there's that. Not sure if it's worth anybody's time to turn a notoriously bad game into something mediocre. You pretty much summed up what I'd like to see done to it, but you're right, not sure if it would be worth the time. Now that I've seen it, I remember that site. Used to visit all the time ages ago. That said, I'd love to be able to use a powered up green weapon, if I were able to avoid getting hit long enough to actually keep it. I did once hack Deep Blue to improve the speed of your ship, so try making these changes in a hex editor: fc /b "Deep Blue (J).pce" "Deep Blue (J-SpeedHack).pce" Comparing files Deep Blue (J).pce and DEEP BLUE (J-SPEEDHACK).PCE 00002C7D: 03 06 00003F42: 03 05 00004AE9: 02 05
Interesting! I ever figure out how to use a hex editor, I'll give it a try. Thanks!
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Post by dshadoff on Apr 17, 2022 17:17:24 GMT
I did once hack Deep Blue to improve the speed of your ship, so try making these changes in a hex editor: fc /b "Deep Blue (J).pce" "Deep Blue (J-SpeedHack).pce" Comparing files Deep Blue (J).pce and DEEP BLUE (J-SPEEDHACK).PCE 00002C7D: 03 06 00003F42: 03 05 00004AE9: 02 05
Just to be clear, are these offsets with respect to a ROM with or without header ?
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Post by ccovell on Apr 19, 2022 12:17:24 GMT
No header, of course.
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nopepper
Deep Blooper
Posts: 21
Fave PCE Shooter: Lords of Thunder
Fave PCE Platformer: Legendary Axe
Fave PCE Game Overall: Dracula X
Fave PCE RPG: Ys I & II
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Post by nopepper on Apr 23, 2022 18:58:40 GMT
I did once hack Deep Blue to improve the speed of your ship, so try making these changes in a hex editor: fc /b "Deep Blue (J).pce" "Deep Blue (J-SpeedHack).pce" Comparing files Deep Blue (J).pce and DEEP BLUE (J-SPEEDHACK).PCE 00002C7D: 03 06 00003F42: 03 05 00004AE9: 02 05
Awesome, thank you - this does make the game a lot more playable. I did, however, only change the first 2 offsets, as I found editing 00004AE9 as well made the speed way too spastic. I presume that was full speed, which I've never been able to accomplish in the stock version. Dire51 - there really is nothing to making these changes. Google HxD and download it. Open the rom with HxD, and for example, if editing 00002C7D, find the Offset(h) in the first column 00002C70, then find the column that contains the last number from Chris' offsets (in this example, 00002C7D, so "D", which in HxD is "0D"). You will see the value 03 in that cell, so just highlight it and type 06. Repeat for the rest of the offsets, save your file and profit.
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Post by dshadoff on Apr 23, 2022 19:18:42 GMT
There is also pretty good online editor that runs in the browser, so no need to download: hexed.it/
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