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Post by DarkKobold on Nov 7, 2019 20:45:31 GMT
Has anyone tried to do a > 5 player homebrew? What is the technological hurdle for including more turbo taps? Is the current of the TG16 just not enough to support more?
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Post by dshadoff on Nov 7, 2019 22:45:21 GMT
It’s technically possible, but would require a special turbotap and custom programming code to read it (all standard code stops at 5). Reading more joypads would require incremental resources, and given that the read is normally done during vblank, this might be a hardship depending on how many and what any other demands might be. Not to mention the incremental demands of game processing of additional player mechanics.
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TailChao
Gun-headed
I Must Eat Muffin Gear.
Posts: 68
Fave PCE Game Overall: Bonk's Adventure
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Post by TailChao on Nov 8, 2019 14:45:28 GMT
I think you should be able to use two TurboTaps to get nine players - specifically with one TurboTap plugged into the first controller port of the other.
Resetting the tap by setting CLR high selects the first controller port, and it'll stay selected until CLR lowers. This should allow you to cycle through the chained tap's five devices, then lower CLR and read the four remaining controllers.
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Post by Black_Tiger on Nov 8, 2019 16:18:49 GMT
I've been dreaming of a 9 player PCE game for as long as I can remember. If 512 pixel wide resolution is possible with HuC, hopefully somebody will eventually put together a demo/game like Saturn Bomberman's 10-player mode.
Based on what I've seen in clips of Catastrophy's beat'em up section(s), a battle royale mode like Guardian Heroes would be very cool.
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Post by DarkKobold on Nov 8, 2019 19:50:46 GMT
I've been dreaming of a 9 player PCE game for as long as I can remember. If 512 pixel wide resolution is possible with HuC, hopefully somebody will eventually put together a demo/game like Saturn Bomberman's 10-player mode. Based on what I've seen in clips of Catastrophy's beat'em up section(s), a battle royale mode like Guardian Heroes would be very cool. Or use a supergrafx, to exceed those dammed limits. That said, HuC probably doesn't support the supergrafx.
This was just a curiosity question mostly. I've got a plate full of projects.
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Post by turboxray on Nov 8, 2019 20:58:24 GMT
I've been dreaming of a 9 player PCE game for as long as I can remember. If 512 pixel wide resolution is possible with HuC, hopefully somebody will eventually put together a demo/game like Saturn Bomberman's 10-player mode. Based on what I've seen in clips of Catastrophy's beat'em up section(s), a battle royale mode like Guardian Heroes would be very cool. Or use a supergrafx, to exceed those dammed limits. That said, HuC probably doesn't support the supergrafx.
This was just a curiosity question mostly. I've got a plate full of projects.
From version 3.98 or whatever, it has both my arcade card and supergrafx library I made years ago. Edit: It works for 3.21, but it wasn't included by default.
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Post by elmer on Nov 9, 2019 1:17:31 GMT
I think you should be able to use two TurboTaps to get nine players - specifically with one TurboTap plugged into the first controller port of the other. Resetting the tap by setting CLR high selects the first controller port, and it'll stay selected until CLR lowers. This should allow you to cycle through the chained tap's five devices, then lower CLR and read the four remaining controllers. Hold on, are you sure? I thought that the TurboTap passed the CLR signal directly on to the attached joypad/mouse/etc ... the 3 and 6 button joypad schematics show that the CLR signal is used to both drive the output, and the "turbo" function. Emanuele Bettidi's Turbo Pad schematicEmanuele Bettidi's Avenue Pad 3 schematicEmanuele Bettidi's Avenue Pad 6 schematicDoes the TurboTap really gate that signal onto the attached pads ... that would be really interesting!
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TailChao
Gun-headed
I Must Eat Muffin Gear.
Posts: 68
Fave PCE Game Overall: Bonk's Adventure
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Post by TailChao on Nov 9, 2019 12:54:43 GMT
Hold on, are you sure? ... Does the TurboTap really gate that signal onto the attached pads ... that would be really interesting! Yep, it does.
I looked into this back in 2018 for my (unfinished) FekaTap, as both methods would have been possible. It was only posted on the old PC Engine FX Forums, so I'll copy the pertinent info below.
Rising Edge of CLR resets the TurboTap and selects Controller 1. | V ___ ___ CLR ____/ \_________________________________________________/ \___ ... ____________ ___ ___ ___ ___ _________________ SEL \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ \___/ ...
^ | If CLR is still high on the Rising Edge of SEL, Controller 1 will remain selected and SEL1 will just toggle. So the Rising Edge of CLR resets the tap and the first controller will remain selected until it lowers.
____ _________________________________________ CLR1 \___________/ \_______ ... ____________ _________________________________________________ SEL1 \___/ ... ________________ _________________________________________ CLR2 \_______/ ... ____________________ _________________________________________ SEL2 \___/ ... ________________________ _________________________________ CLR3 \_______/ ... ____________________________ _________________________________ SEL3 \___/ ... ________________________________ _________________________ CLR4 \_______/ ... ____________________________________ _________________________ SEL4 \___/ ... ________________________________________ _________________ CLR5 \_______/ ... ____________________________________________ _________________ SEL5 \___/ ...
After ten edges on SEL, the tap will deselect all controllers. I've seen claims that repeatedly toggling SEL after this will either cause the tap to wrap around or just stop reading and output "0000" - I've gotten both behaviors to occur and can't find a pattern for either. So my guess is that the intended behavior was the tap should stop reading after ten toggles of SEL but this doesn't work right so don't depend upon it in any software.
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Post by elmer on Nov 10, 2019 21:31:06 GMT
Yep, it does. I looked into this back in 2018 for my (unfinished) FekaTap, as both methods would have been possible. It was only posted on the old PC Engine FX Forums, so I'll copy the pertinent info below. Thank you for doing that test, I certainly wouldn't have expected that behavior! So the devices that are attached to the TurboTap actually spend most of their time with CLR high ... i.e. in the "no output" state. Hmmmm ... my braincells aren't overly functional, but something about that sounds like it might interfere with the ability to use 2 mice at the same time ... which would be sad for the two-or-three of us in the world with more than one PC Engine mouse. Testing that will be something to add to the task list.
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Post by DarkKobold on Nov 10, 2019 22:16:20 GMT
I think you should be able to use two TurboTaps to get nine players - specifically with one TurboTap plugged into the first controller port of the other.
Resetting the tap by setting CLR high selects the first controller port, and it'll stay selected until CLR lowers. This should allow you to cycle through the chained tap's five devices, then lower CLR and read the four remaining controllers.
Wouldn't that also hold the 2nd Tap at Controller 1?
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Post by DarkKobold on Nov 11, 2019 23:34:27 GMT
Or use a supergrafx, to exceed those dammed limits. That said, HuC probably doesn't support the supergrafx.
This was just a curiosity question mostly. I've got a plate full of projects.
From version 3.98 or whatever, it has both my arcade card and supergrafx library I made years ago. Edit: It works for 3.21, but it wasn't included by default. I just took a look at it. Seems way too complex for me.
Also, there appears to be no sgx_load_palette... are there only 32 palettes on the SGX?
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Post by turboxray on Nov 12, 2019 1:11:24 GMT
From version 3.98 or whatever, it has both my arcade card and supergrafx library I made years ago. Edit: It works for 3.21, but it wasn't included by default. I just took a look at it. Seems way too complex for me.
Also, there appears to be no sgx_load_palette... are there only 32 palettes on the SGX?
SGX doesn't have its own set of subpalettes. Those are on the VCE, and that wasn't changed on the SGX (both video chips are mixed together, and then output to the VCE).
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Post by elmer on Nov 12, 2019 1:50:05 GMT
Or use a supergrafx, to exceed those dammed limits. That said, HuC probably doesn't support the supergrafx. This was just a curiosity question mostly. I've got a plate full of projects. Have fun exploring the possibilities of the SuperGrafx, it's quite a nice boost over the base PC Engine. You guys are doing a lovely job of pushing the limits of both pure-HuC, and the techniques that are built into it, and Catastropy is looking absolutely great ... but please don't think that you're really pushing the limits of the PC Engine yet, because you've still got quite a way to go, and this is only your first PCE project.
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TailChao
Gun-headed
I Must Eat Muffin Gear.
Posts: 68
Fave PCE Game Overall: Bonk's Adventure
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Post by TailChao on Nov 12, 2019 14:23:03 GMT
Wouldn't that also hold the 2nd Tap at Controller 1? Not if the access pattern I observed is actually correct.
Raising CLR on the 1st Tap, then holding it high and toggling SEL will keep it on Port 1 (CLR1 == 0, SEL1 == Toggling), and since this is identical to the access pattern used to iterate through all five controllers normally - it should cycle through the 2nd Tap's devices. Once CLR is lowered on the 1st Tap, the sequence can advance and the 2nd Tap will be deselected.
As long as the TurboTaps continue to pass their readings up when SEL is high (I think they do) - it should work.
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Post by DarkKobold on Nov 12, 2019 17:55:36 GMT
Or use a supergrafx, to exceed those dammed limits. That said, HuC probably doesn't support the supergrafx. This was just a curiosity question mostly. I've got a plate full of projects. Have fun exploring the possibilities of the SuperGrafx, it's quite a nice boost over the base PC Engine. You guys are doing a lovely job of pushing the limits of both pure-HuC, and the techniques that are built into it, and Catastropy is looking absolutely great ... but please don't think that you're really pushing the limits of the PC Engine yet, because you've still got quite a way to go, and this is only your first PCE project. The limit I'm specifically speaking of is 256 sprite pixels per scanline. Sprite drop is limiting me more than anything. That said, if I ported Catastrophy to the SuperGrafx, it would just be for a laugh, and to massively increase the enemies on screen. It wouldn't be anything to really utilize the Super Grafx.
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