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Post by gredler on Jan 30, 2020 23:26:23 GMT
yeah, good point - these damn sellouts, and new stuff sucks!
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DutchDimension
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 122
Homebrew skills: Pixel, 2D and 3D art
Fave PCE Shooter: Override
Fave PCE Platformer: Mizbak's Adventure
Fave PCE Game Overall: Too many to choose from
Fave PCE RPG: Ys series
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Post by DutchDimension on Jan 31, 2020 0:24:30 GMT
Did you read my last post? I am fairly certain what you are asking is what this team did - they made a game that could be on Genesis and then up-ported it to Neo Geo, then up ported that to XBox, Switch, PS4, and PC. Xenocrisis. “I realize money controls everything but I sure would like it if more of these games just ran on the hardware that it looks like they run on. It’s so disappointing to see this kind of thing and realize you have to buy something brand new for $400 if you want to play what is basically a SNES game. ” This was my point. I’m not interested in debating PS3 anymore. It’s disappointing that I need to run out and buy the most powerful game systems ever REGARDLESS OF MANUFACTURE to run something that won’t even come close to revving it’s engine off idle. I don’t know what Xenocrisis is. Is it Xenogears crossed with Dino Crisis? I sure hope not but no, seriously, I haven’t been keeping them in business or not. It’s cool that they did that and maybe I’ll look into it. I don’t go to any news sites and nobody I know locally plays anything but sports crap and murder sims. Facebook and Twitter I have both quit. Forums like this are my only source of gaming news and apparently I’m massively out of the loop. I still use OEM systems and play real games like some dipshit from the 90s. Don't you have a PC? Unless yours is a x486 from the 90s you could always play it on that. No need to buy $400 worth of modern console. That's how I look at it.
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Post by spenoza on Jan 31, 2020 1:00:00 GMT
Welp, very few people are making new (if old-looking) games for old systems, so you have to buy new systems to play new games. Otherwise, just stick to playing old games on old systems and you’re set.
Now, Battle Axe. I hope it develops nicely.
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Post by SignOfZeta on Jan 31, 2020 1:50:26 GMT
“I realize money controls everything but I sure would like it if more of these games just ran on the hardware that it looks like they run on. It’s so disappointing to see this kind of thing and realize you have to buy something brand new for $400 if you want to play what is basically a SNES game. ” This was my point. I’m not interested in debating PS3 anymore. It’s disappointing that I need to run out and buy the most powerful game systems ever REGARDLESS OF MANUFACTURE to run something that won’t even come close to revving it’s engine off idle. I don’t know what Xenocrisis is. Is it Xenogears crossed with Dino Crisis? I sure hope not but no, seriously, I haven’t been keeping them in business or not. It’s cool that they did that and maybe I’ll look into it. I don’t go to any news sites and nobody I know locally plays anything but sports crap and murder sims. Facebook and Twitter I have both quit. Forums like this are my only source of gaming news and apparently I’m massively out of the loop. I still use OEM systems and play real games like some dipshit from the 90s. Don't you have a PC? Unless yours is a x486 from the 90s you could always play it on that. No need to buy $400 worth of modern console. That's how I look at it. What is the “it” that I would be playing. Battle Axe? I have a Mac so no, I don’t really have a PC. I use Windows all day at work, sometimes over half a dozen machines at once. When I go home I don’t want even another second of it. I play emulators on the Mac but I don’t like “real” PC stuff that requires updates and credit card numbers and passwords. You do have a point though. I didn’t think of that.
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DutchDimension
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 122
Homebrew skills: Pixel, 2D and 3D art
Fave PCE Shooter: Override
Fave PCE Platformer: Mizbak's Adventure
Fave PCE Game Overall: Too many to choose from
Fave PCE RPG: Ys series
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Post by DutchDimension on Jan 31, 2020 2:42:48 GMT
Don't you have a PC? Unless yours is a x486 from the 90s you could always play it on that. No need to buy $400 worth of modern console. That's how I look at it. What is the “it” that I would be playing. Battle Axe? I have a Mac so no, I don’t really have a PC. I use Windows all day at work, sometimes over half a dozen machines at once. When I go home I don’t want even another second of it. I play emulators on the Mac but I don’t like “real” PC stuff that requires updates and credit card numbers and passwords. You do have a point though. I didn’t think of that. Ah! A fellow Mac user. Well met. I'm in the same boat as you it seems. Having to suffer Windows (and Linux) at work all day and then thankfully, come home to a blissful all Mac environment. I'm 100% with you on the credit card numbers and password type malarkey. I came to the Apple eco-system to get away from all that. Love computer life in the walled garden. But hey, Battle Axe will be available on macOS too. Personally, I'll wait until it comes out and then decide if it is worth purchasing. For now I just love the look of it. I agree with Gredler in the sense that I think Henk did an outstanding job of balancing the golden age of 2D-pixel arcade action style with the power of modern hardware. It's all too easy to start piling on Alpha blended shader effects, or god forbid the blasphemous act of rotating pixels just because the hardware allows it. I see so many Indie game developers do that, ruining the aesthetic, ending up with some uncomfortable hybrid look.
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DutchDimension
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 122
Homebrew skills: Pixel, 2D and 3D art
Fave PCE Shooter: Override
Fave PCE Platformer: Mizbak's Adventure
Fave PCE Game Overall: Too many to choose from
Fave PCE RPG: Ys series
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Post by DutchDimension on Jan 31, 2020 3:23:41 GMT
I'm a fan of a lot of his work, but I can't get excited about faux pixelart. A modern game would have to have other merits. Those consoles you listed run in low enough resolutions that the artwork would be strained through, that the resulting appearance would be pixelated. They wouldn't be pretending at all. Battle Axe's artwork isn't made for the target consoles, it's faking select aspects of what could be bottlenecks of misc hardware that could have existed. It is the literal definition of "retro". It's cool that there are people interested in that and I won't get into the historical revisionism it's caused. It's not as extreme a contrast, but it shouldn't be necessary to ask why someone prefers a detailed oil painting done by hand to a digital photo with a filter applied to it. Especially when the artists' recent work was authentic. Out of curiosity, do you really think this has a faux pixel-art look? Because I don't really see it. What other merits should a modern game aiming for a 90s Arcade experience have? I get what you're trying to say, and I agree with you up to a point. But I think your analogy is a bit too harsh, as it implies that short-cuts where taken without concern for quality. That's not the case here.
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Post by SignOfZeta on Jan 31, 2020 3:57:50 GMT
What is the “it” that I would be playing. Battle Axe? I have a Mac so no, I don’t really have a PC. I use Windows all day at work, sometimes over half a dozen machines at once. When I go home I don’t want even another second of it. I play emulators on the Mac but I don’t like “real” PC stuff that requires updates and credit card numbers and passwords. You do have a point though. I didn’t think of that. Ah! A fellow Mac user. Well met. I'm in the same boat as you it seems. Having to suffer Windows (and Linux) at work all day and then thankfully, come home to a blissful all Mac environment. I'm 100% with you on the credit card numbers and password type malarkey. I came to the Apple eco-system to get away from all that. Love computer life in the walled garden. But hey, Battle Axe will be available on macOS too. Personally, I'll wait until it comes out and then decide if it is worth purchasing. For now I just love the look of it. I agree with Gredler in the sense that I think Henk did an outstanding job of balancing the golden age of 2D-pixel arcade action style with the power of modern hardware. It's all too easy to start piling on Alpha blended shader effects, or god forbid the blasphemous act of rotating pixels just because the hardware allows it. I see so many Indie game developers do that, ruining the aesthetic, ending up with some uncomfortable hybrid look. If it can be bought from the Mac App Store as a native app and doesn’t need Steam or anything I’ll probably check it out.
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Post by spenoza on Jan 31, 2020 13:59:25 GMT
Steam is how I buy all the games I'll never play. How will you buy games you'll never play if you don't have Steam?
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Post by Black_Tiger on Jan 31, 2020 18:34:55 GMT
Welp, very few people are making new (if old-looking) games for old systems, so you have to buy new systems to play new games. Otherwise, just stick to playing old games on old systems and you’re set. Now, Battle Axe. I hope it develops nicely. Not only are many people making new games for old consoles, some consoles now or soon will have more post-initial market physically published games/software than the original library. And there are many more new games that have only been distributed as roms.
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Post by spenoza on Jan 31, 2020 19:11:58 GMT
Welp, very few people are making new (if old-looking) games for old systems, so you have to buy new systems to play new games. Otherwise, just stick to playing old games on old systems and you’re set. Now, Battle Axe. I hope it develops nicely. Not only are many people making new games for old consoles, some consoles now or soon will have more post-initial market physically published games/software than the original library. And there are many more new games that have only been distributed as roms. I meant strictly in relation to new indie titles coming out for newer systems. But you're right, the homebrew market isn't some dead zone At the same time, it's not like the Sega CD, for example, is some booming new games market compared to indie output on the Nintendo Switch.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2020 16:31:31 GMT
Should a game be considered retro if it is pixel art or does it have to be designed to run on original hardware?
I think it is less of a question mark for "NES" style games as NES games are so distinct graphically. Mega Man 9/10 and Curse of the Moon may not run on original hardware, but they are undeniably NES games.
It is more vague to me when we get into the 16-bit era, or 32 bit I have heard some people describe certain pixel art games (Sonic Mania, I think, but isn't that supposed to be a Genesis game?).
The only pixel art game I have played that was purported to be a Supergrafx game was Battle Princess Madelyn. Suppose if the PC Engine Mini had a digital storefront and Battle Princess Madelyn was released digitally for it--would the Ghosts n Ghouls connection be enough to make it a Supergrafx game or would it have to be authenticate? I don't think it would be, and I think I would want it to be an authentic. Oh, there could be an enhanced mode, which for all intents and purposes would leave the game as it is, but if I wanted to play the game as it may have appeared if it had been released back in the day for original hardware I should be able to. That would make it a Supergrafx game for me.
Ideally we would have updated versions of old consoles released or one new retro console (probably emulation) with graphical styles or colour palettes for select systems (Atari, NES, etc). Developers would still be able to cheat if they wanted to ala Curse of the Moon, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be authenticate modes for these games __all that entails__ In contrast I would want enhanced graphics and stability for original games (so no slow down or sprite flickering) and maybe even DLC. Retro gaming is all that was cool about the past, but that doesn't mean we have to bring everything with us.
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Post by SignOfZeta on Feb 1, 2020 18:39:01 GMT
Is it possible to make a version of Unity that will compile the game for PC Engine? Probably never. Making games for the old systems required skills basically gone nowadays and limitations no one today has to work with. People were timing things by the AC line voltage frequency and memory was, by today’s standards, non-existent and there are bottlenecks everywhere. It can’t be...”fun”, you know? I mean, fun to play with, sure, but not fun when you have a boss and a budget and a time limit which is how games that are actually full complete fun games get made (and lots of crap ones too). Most of the PCE/MD/SNES games were made by people worked so hard they would collapse at their work station and they were making less than minimum wage, too poor to paid into the national health care system. People who did it for the love and people who did it for their boss. That’s the world where animators and coders of the 80s worked. Anyone want to do that? Anyone?
But making new machines to play fake old games is not the answer. Not when you can buy an entire PC for $380 from Dell and so many people know how to do it already.
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Post by Black_Tiger on Feb 1, 2020 20:40:46 GMT
Not only are many people making new games for old consoles, some consoles now or soon will have more post-initial market physically published games/software than the original library. And there are many more new games that have only been distributed as roms. I meant strictly in relation to new indie titles coming out for newer systems. But you're right, the homebrew market isn't some dead zone At the same time, it's not like the Sega CD, for example, is some booming new games market compared to indie output on the Nintendo Switch. There are still more new games being released each year for classic consoles than most people have time time to play.
I don't know why you'd cherry pick a subset of the Genesis library to pretend that this isn't true. The downturn in new Ouya releases doesn't mean that the Switch isn't receiving new games.
However, the Mega SD has resulted in lots of new MD+ games. Soon their quantity likely surpass the size of the Sega-CD library.
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Post by Black_Tiger on Feb 1, 2020 21:08:08 GMT
Should a game be considered retro if it is pixel art or does it have to be designed to run on original hardware? This is what I was getting at. The term retro means "imitative of a style, fashion, or design from the recent past." All of these faux pixelart games are legitimately "retro", as their intention is to mimic aesthetics from the past, regardless of how accurate they may or may not be. Unfortunately as collecting rapidly overtook gaming, the term quickly became misused to describe classic gaming. Pixelart is the manifestation of artwork being strained through a video game hardware's technical limitations. Most retro (not classic) games ignore nearly or completely all of the specs/bottlenecks/misc that defined pixelart. Even to the point where every element in scenes will be pixelated in a different resolution. Mega Man 9/10 is a great example of a legit attempt to recreate a classic pixelart medium on modern hardware. I don't think that any legit 16-bit or 32-bit spec retro games have been made for modern hardware. This is an element of the historical revisionism I mentioned earlier. The team that made Shovel Knight claimed that the game is what we would have seen on NES if it hadn't been discontinued. In reality it uses zero NES specs and the Sega Saturn couldn't hope to run it. I never heard about any SuperGrafx claims in regards to Princess Madelyn, but the SuperGrafx is just a PC Engine with an extra tile and sprite layer. But even the Xbox couldn't handle Princess Madelyn. It's supposed to mimmic Ghouls 'n Ghosts, but CPS3 wouldn't come close either. Aside from the scaling/rotation, the pixelart is 240p in a wide screen horizontal resolution. Then layers of 1080+p artwork and effects are mechanically mixed together. The scaling/rotaion and raster effects are also filtered for minimal distortion. This would be ideal. Unfortunately so many retro games claim to be running within authentic specs of specific classic gaming hardware, but are actually off in pretty much every aspect. Many devs of retro games use the illusion of "pixelart" to pump out a new game with minimal effort. There is an increased market for faux pixelart games as the notion of pixelart has been blurred to the point that for a majority of retro consumers, it simply means "pixelated".
As I originally stated, if that's your cup of tea you have lots to look forward to. But it shouldn't surprise anyone when some "hardcore" classic gaming fans don't find pixelization as a gimmick appealing.
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DutchDimension
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 122
Homebrew skills: Pixel, 2D and 3D art
Fave PCE Shooter: Override
Fave PCE Platformer: Mizbak's Adventure
Fave PCE Game Overall: Too many to choose from
Fave PCE RPG: Ys series
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Post by DutchDimension on Feb 2, 2020 12:54:36 GMT
Henk at work on the 'Mines' tile set including an new track from Manami. link
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