Gaijin D
Punkic Cyborg
Yare yare da ze.
Posts: 137
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Post by Gaijin D on Jun 24, 2020 20:13:56 GMT
Nice! What about games that use higher-res? Specifically, forgotten worlds? These are all I have to hand at the moment, unfortunately, so I can't say. |
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keithcourage
Punkic Cyborg
https://www.facebook.com/turbografxfan/
Posts: 232
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Post by keithcourage on Jun 25, 2020 2:22:23 GMT
Interesting about the composite output.
I've always thought Red was off when using RGB or Component because it makes Flesh colored tones like faces Burning red. A good example is the 1st Bonk game or JJ and Jeff.
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samiam
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 100
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Post by samiam on Jun 26, 2020 7:27:43 GMT
All of this is extremely up my alley and is something I would love to spend more time working on. But man, I just don't have that time.
Good luck, guys. I'll be watching, at least.
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Post by dshadoff on Jun 26, 2020 16:51:33 GMT
Well, the {Y, B-Y, R-Y} values have been extracted
And we have tried a few different palette-backtracks. Nothing perfect yet, but getting close:    |
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sarge
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 104
Fave PCE Shooter: Soldier Blade
Fave PCE Game Overall: Dracula X: Rondo of Blood
Fave PCE RPG: Dungeon Explorer II
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Post by sarge on Jun 26, 2020 18:55:41 GMT
Very cool. Great work!
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Post by spenoza on Jun 26, 2020 20:59:32 GMT
So, can someone who understands that table speculate as to why Hudson used the values they did?
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samiam
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 100
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Post by samiam on Jun 27, 2020 1:24:47 GMT
Amazing. Those values are the real paydirt.
It's at once exciting and depressing. Exciting because it's now going to be possible to have faithful color reproduction in high fidelity; depressing because once this gets implemented into either the MiSTer or a CRT Emudriver-compatible version of Mednafen, I'm not sure if I'll ever play my real hardware again.
At least this will give me an excuse to play all my favorite PCE games one more time.
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sarge
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 104
Fave PCE Shooter: Soldier Blade
Fave PCE Game Overall: Dracula X: Rondo of Blood
Fave PCE RPG: Dungeon Explorer II
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Post by sarge on Jun 27, 2020 3:57:08 GMT
I emulate a ton, but there's still something special about using real hardware. I'll certainly still be using my Duo, although I've definitely been interested in getting a MiSTer setup.
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Post by dshadoff on Jun 30, 2020 14:32:57 GMT
In case I haven't included it yet, here is the original translation table. pce_yuv_orig.ods (93.43 KB) None of the 'normal' translation calculations (and there are many) were able to map back to "good" RGB values.... so, a novel approach was taken: Based on the best composite screen capture (not bad, actually), a few samples (primaries and secondaries only) were taken; from these, a transformation matrix from the above Y,B-Y,R-Y values to RGB values was resolved. - Even without planning it, the output spanned from 0,1,0 to 255,255,255 without forcing it to - the solution matrix was not any of the classical transformations we had seen (YIQ, BT.601, YUV, and variations) The challenge is that we don't yet know why it's this way, so we aren't yet comfortable that we have the final solution. The team is still looking at actual output ranges of generated signals, and trying to find out mathematically what's going on. I think I saw earlier in the thread that somebody had put together (or was planning to put together) a SPICE model for the video output (see below)... I wonder if that might help the derivation of this final math. (Watch the homebrew subforum for pictures !)  |
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czroe
Deep Blooper
Posts: 45
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Post by czroe on Sept 8, 2020 0:59:42 GMT
Anyone know if Voultar is working on this? He tweeted a teaser pic with his scope and said he was revisiting some PC Engine stuff soon after Furtek extracted the look-up table. When someone asked if that was related to the revelation that composite and RGB were using a different set of colors on NEC consoles, he coyly replied with something like "maybe.  ", which almost seemed like a confirmation. I ask because I'm ready to mod my SuperGrafx, Duo, and CoreGrafx... on the verge, really, since I already installed shielded DIN-8 in each. I have installed Voultar's RGB amp for others in the past but I did not order one for myself yet. I also recently got two of the RGB+audio amps from Doujindance which replace the RF modulator on a white PCE since I wanted a clean-looking mod for my clear and smoke RGR shells. If we might have a proper YPbPr component amp soon I definitely don't want to go down the RGB rabbit hole with all of them. If the best we can do is S-Video I'll even go with that for some of these. Is it likely that someone will make a Framemeister or OSSC profile that corrects the colors with an RGB input? In that case I won't feel so bad about installing a traditional RGB amp.  |
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Post by dshadoff on Sept 8, 2020 5:19:47 GMT
Several of us are on Artemio's discord server, trying to take all sorts of measurements from the composite output and RGB values from broadcast-quality demodulators... in the hopes of understanding whether there are additional non-linearities in the amplificiation and/or modulation stages. Early days though.
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czroe
Deep Blooper
Posts: 45
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Post by czroe on Sept 8, 2020 15:11:45 GMT
Several of us are on Artemio's discord server, trying to take all sorts of measurements from the composite output and RGB values from broadcast-quality demodulators... in the hopes of understanding whether there are additional non-linearities in the amplificiation and/or modulation stages. Early days though. Good to know. Thanks! Well, it's not like I need a video upgrade in every system so I will just go ahead with the Doujindance RF replacement kits for now and leave the other systems prepped for whatever may come. Thanks for everything you guys are doing! |
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Post by spenoza on Sept 8, 2020 19:06:09 GMT
Doujindance doesn't have the best reputation around here, but maybe their work quality has improved in recent years.
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czroe
Deep Blooper
Posts: 45
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Post by czroe on Sept 8, 2020 19:33:13 GMT
Doujindance doesn't have the best reputation around here, but maybe their work quality has improved in recent years. It has. youtu.be/i7hNWlWGySoHe stepped up his game and most of his harshest critics have acknowledged this. Voultar has used it as an example of the proper way to respond to constructive criticism. The biggest criticisms were his use tape, epoxy, and bubble wrap with long wires and perfboard instead of professional PCBs. He has addressed all of that and gone on to create new and innovative designs that no one else is doing. His RF box replacement for the white PC Engine is easily the cleanest and most feature-filled mod board out there for the white PC Engine, which is a little more important for the clear Retro Game Restore replacement shell. No one else to my knowledge is selling one with an audio amp. For a white PCE I would have to bodge together something with Mobius Strip Tech's audio amp and one of the RGB amps intended for any NEC consoles... and I probably wouldn't even bother with the switch in place of the channel selector. I'm also impressed with his Duo and CoreGrafx mod boards that mount right on the DIN connector. Very cool idea! His workmanship was always the big issue, but not anymore. Regardless, I will be the one installing this and not him. He didn't have anything worth selling for DIY installs when he got his bad reputation! That said, he was doing it longer than most too. How many other modders were using custom PCBs for their PC Engine modwork a decade ago? When we critique him for not using them in his past work we need to remember that he's been doing it commercially a lot longer than most, and even those who were doing it back then weren't getting professional PCBs. That's why there is so much of Doujindance's early handiwork around. |
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Post by dshadoff on Oct 11, 2020 18:35:09 GMT
Anyone know if Voultar is working on this? He tweeted a teaser pic with his scope and said he was revisiting some PC Engine stuff soon after Furtek extracted the look-up table. When someone asked if that was related to the revelation that composite and RGB were using a different set of colors on NEC consoles, he coyly replied with something like "maybe. ", which almost seemed like a confirmation. So, it turns out that Voultar has been working on it as well. Note 1: He is calling this an EVALUATION layout, so he is still finalizing a few things and I expect he will update at some point. Note 2: I haven't seen the results of this mod yet, but I'm getting some boards made. I'm sure others here will too, now that the link is up. Voultar's S-Video mod Board (EVAL version)SamIAm is also continuing to work on his alternate board. If we might have a proper YPbPr component amp soon I definitely don't want to go down the RGB rabbit hole with all of them. If the best we can do is S-Video I'll even go with that for some of these. Is it likely that someone will make a Framemeister or OSSC profile that corrects the colors with an RGB input? In that case I won't feel so bad about installing a traditional RGB amp. Well, Voultar has also mentioned that he will continue to look into component output. And I've mentioned that an OSSC profile is possible (but likely will require firmware revision) And I've also recently seen an FPGA circuit which does a real-time A-D sampling of RGB, converting it into alternate formats on-the-fly... so that's also possible. And, in time, I'm pretty sure that all of these approaches will come into existence (but no schedules - this is all spare-time stuff). The RGB-based ones (which don't exist yet) should be independent of the S-Video one, so in theory you shouldn't need to limit yourself to just one. |
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", which almost seemed like a confirmation.