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Post by elmer on Jan 6, 2020 5:24:39 GMT
I've been doing ASM coding on and off for the last few decades I was hoping to not have to write too much platform specific code but it seems like I'll need to. Honestly, if you're aready an experienced 6502 assembly-language programmer, I recommend just ditching the C part of HuC, and just use the assembler. In my opinion, the PC Engine is a beatifully designed piece of hardware, much closer to home computers like the C64/Atari in philosophy, rather than the other 4th-generation consoles where you have to spend a lot of time programming to the particular idiosyncracies caused by their graphics hardware. That is primarily because of the PCE's unrestricted access to video memory, which allows the programmer to keep a simple flow of logic through the main loop, and not worry about keeping lists of deferred graphics updates to process during the vblank, or with DMA. That design choice, together with the HuC6280 CPU's transfer instructions that give you a 1Mbyte-per-second upload rate to VRAM, make it the most programmer-friendly machine of the generation ... IMHO. With the PCEAS assembler, and a simple header file, you can get access to everything that the system provides, and retain the freedom to use the hardware however you wish. If you use HuC, then you have to accept the design choices and system usage that HuC expects, some of which are not well documented, and many of which may well not be how you'd do things if your were comfortable with assembly-language.
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Post by monstersgoboom on Jan 6, 2020 6:39:15 GMT
Basically yeah I've been doing a lot of c64 asm recently It feels very familiar like a better C64 but don't tell 14yr old me that I was C64 for life back then . How does pceas hold up against wla-dx ? I feel like huc6280 was a recent addition to wla.
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Post by elmer on Jan 6, 2020 8:00:24 GMT
It feels very familiar like a better C64 but don't tell 14yr old me that Hahaha ... please tell your friends, we could do with some more programmers, artists and musicians over here! The hardware is totally open and ripe for some enterprising C64/Atari demo-scene developers to "discover". How does pceas hold up against wla-dx ? I feel like huc6280 was a recent addition to wla. I don't know wla-dx, so I can't make an informed comparison. A quick look at the current wla-dx docs makes it sound fairly similar, but IMHO, I think that PCEAS is going to have the edge for PCE development, primarily because of the way that it handles its banking, which maps *really* well onto the flexibility that the PC Engine offers (more similar to a modern virtual-memory paging scheme). PCEAS's automatic handling of calling functions in other banks (designed for HuC usage), is also another feature that you're not going to find anywhere else. P.S. Since you're coming from the C64 world, you might consider skipping HuCard development, and going straight to CD/SuperCD/ArcadeCD development where you don't have to work within the confines of the meager 8KB of RAM in the base PC Engine ... there are programming techniques that you can only really take advantage of once you get the extra RAM in the CD systems. Or maybe you find the limited RAM poses an interesting challenge.
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Post by turboxray on Jan 6, 2020 17:39:12 GMT
Basically yeah I've been doing a lot of c64 asm recently It feels very familiar like a better C64 but don't tell 14yr old me that I was C64 for life back then . How does pceas hold up against wla-dx ? I feel like huc6280 was a recent addition to wla. I know a few members used wla-dx at first (Mooz maybe? Ccovell I think?). I don't know what's changed, but some things were just more difficult to pull off, like labels and making code to be relocated into ram for self-modifying code. Not that it's super nice on PCEAS, but it's decent. I can't remember exactly, but I think PCEAS has more powerful macros. PCEAS: - You can include binary files, and re-position ORG back over them and overwrite parts of them (good for hacking roms, ripped CD ram, and other stuff) - It doesn't have +++ and ---, but I added that for local labels: .++ , .---- for porting other 65x code. The down side is that you need a space if you're adding anything with a local label: temp = .+++ + 1, etc - It has .db and .dw but also .dwh and .dwl (I think those are the names haha) <- which are just .db but take the lsb or msb. Probably not as big a deal not that < and > were added, but it's still a nice copy/paste option. - People complain about the [zp] syntax for ZP indirection, but I much prefer it over (<zp) because it directly stands out IMO. I also hate that other assemblers automatically convert an address mode to ZP when use in that part of ram. PCEAS doesn't do that. You need to specifically use <. - the current address is * not $. Looks confusing if you do (* / const) haha. - Macros allow unique identifiers to be added to anything via \@. So like this_equate\@ to make a unique equate that's just inside the macro. Or local labels inside macros: .x_\@ - .ZP and .BSS can be called defined anywhere. This is really nice considering there's no linker for PCEAS. - nested includes are a little bit funky, as the path isn't relative to nested asm file including something but rather of the root. Probably not an issue if you're using make files and have the paths mapped out (then just use pathless include). For the record, there's PCEAS and then there's Mkit or MagicKit. I think a good 90% of us just use PCEAS without the Mkit stuff.
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DutchDimension
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 122
Homebrew skills: Pixel, 2D and 3D art
Fave PCE Shooter: Override
Fave PCE Platformer: Mizbak's Adventure
Fave PCE Game Overall: Too many to choose from
Fave PCE RPG: Ys series
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Post by DutchDimension on Jan 9, 2020 5:19:58 GMT
Hahaha ... please tell your friends, we could do with some more programmers, artists and musicians over here! Artist here. Currently working at Square Enix, Visual Works division in Tokyo, but with 17+ years of prior Visual Effects experience for film & TV. One day I hope to pixel my very own PC-Engine HuCard game. Just way to busy right now to even dream of firing up a Pixel app. I was terribly excited by that Golden Axe effort Black Tiger et al. were working on many moons ago. Such a shame that fizzled out.
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Post by gredler on Jan 9, 2020 9:07:08 GMT
Hahaha ... please tell your friends, we could do with some more programmers, artists and musicians over here! Artist here. Currently working at Square Enix, Visual Works division in Tokyo, but with 17+ years of prior Visual Effects experience for film & TV. One day I hope to pixel my very own PC-Engine HuCard game. Just way to busy right now to even dream of firing up a Pixel app. I was terribly excited by that Golden Axe effort Black Tiger et al. were working on many moons ago. Such a shame that fizzled out. Heck yeah so cool to know another art focused homie is active on the boards! Besides BT and less frequently Fragmare it gets awfully quiet around here on the art/design/audio departments. I always hope to hear wisdom from the sunteam master himself, and the critically and commercially successfull Sarumaru of the Yuki squad has gone silent as well. #pceartpush2020 The more the merrier, as elmer said, we can always use more companionship on this rough and windey road of PCE dev in 2020 lol I am a artist at PlayStation in San Diego and have been making PCE art for a few years now and love it! It's easier than you may think, even just using photoshop is sufficient, and there are a lot of fun free mobile apps to make pixel art with on both android and apple. If you want to get into PCE art dev and have any questions getting game ready work, or want suggestions on what to toy around with for some pixel art specific tools I would be more than happy to help! Come on in, the water's fine! Also, I'd love to see more of your profile pic! Is it on art station, or do you have a portfolio/links you would be willing to share? The model looks clean and lighting is very soft and nice! Is it a high poly model, or normals on a game ready model? What was it rendered in? *starved for pce art discussion*
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DutchDimension
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 122
Homebrew skills: Pixel, 2D and 3D art
Fave PCE Shooter: Override
Fave PCE Platformer: Mizbak's Adventure
Fave PCE Game Overall: Too many to choose from
Fave PCE RPG: Ys series
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Post by DutchDimension on Jan 9, 2020 10:20:42 GMT
Heck yeah so cool to know another art focused homie is active on the boards! Besides BT and less frequently Fragmare it gets awfully quiet around here on the art/design/audio departments. I always hope to hear wisdom from the sunteam master himself, and the critically and commercially successfull Sarumaru of the Yuki squad has gone silent as well. #pceartpush2020 The more the merrier, as elmer said, we can always use more companionship on this rough and windey road of PCE dev in 2020 lol I am a artist at PlayStation in San Diego and have been making PCE art for a few years now and love it! It's easier than you may think, even just using photoshop is sufficient, and there are a lot of fun free mobile apps to make pixel art with on both android and apple. If you want to get into PCE art dev and have any questions getting game ready work, or want suggestions on what to toy around with for some pixel art specific tools I would be more than happy to help! Come on in, the water's fine! Also, I'd love to see more of your profile pic! Is it on art station, or do you have a portfolio/links you would be willing to share? The model looks clean and lighting is very soft and nice! Is it a high poly model, or normals on a game ready model? What was it rendered in? *starved for pce art discussion* Hi Gredler! Nice to see another professional artist on the boards. I often (erroneously) assume most people who frequent these kind of places tend to be gamers/consumers more than creatives. But this sub-forum proves there are some talented developers in the PCE community. Pretty intriguing to read the developer discussions. Before becoming a VFX artist I spent years doing pixel art in the Amiga Demo scene and also did some pixel art on the C64. I recently bought a license of Cosmigo's Pro-Motion with the intent of doing some pixel art again. 3D pipelines can be so convoluted and tiresome (today, Maya just doesn't want to cooperate ), that I often long for the simplicity and directness of Pixel art. But alas, no time. Still committed to give it a go sooner rather than later, so thank you for your kind offer of help. I'm sure I'll have some questions about PCE palettes/limitations, file-formats, etc. The PC-Engine in my profile pic is a turn-table of a model I made to teach myself how to use SoftImage XSI, many years ago. I think I modeled it back in 2004/2005 or so. I love that design so much I just had to model it. Interesting anecdote, I actually received a message from PCEWorks Tobias a few years ago. He asked for a copy of the model. I'm pretty sure he was cooking up some plans to make some money with it. Needless to say I declined. I'll see if I can dig out the old renders and post some higher resolution renders.
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DutchDimension
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 122
Homebrew skills: Pixel, 2D and 3D art
Fave PCE Shooter: Override
Fave PCE Platformer: Mizbak's Adventure
Fave PCE Game Overall: Too many to choose from
Fave PCE RPG: Ys series
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Post by DutchDimension on Jan 9, 2020 14:55:34 GMT
Hey Gredler, I posted some renders of the PC Engine model in a separate thread, if you're interested. Have a look.
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Post by turboxray on Jan 9, 2020 18:33:42 GMT
Heck yeah so cool to know another art focused homie is active on the boards! Besides BT and less frequently Fragmare it gets awfully quiet around here on the art/design/audio departments. I always hope to hear wisdom from the sunteam master himself, and the critically and commercially successfull Sarumaru of the Yuki squad has gone silent as well. #pceartpush2020 The more the merrier, as elmer said, we can always use more companionship on this rough and windey road of PCE dev in 2020 lol I am a artist at PlayStation in San Diego and have been making PCE art for a few years now and love it! It's easier than you may think, even just using photoshop is sufficient, and there are a lot of fun free mobile apps to make pixel art with on both android and apple. If you want to get into PCE art dev and have any questions getting game ready work, or want suggestions on what to toy around with for some pixel art specific tools I would be more than happy to help! Come on in, the water's fine! Also, I'd love to see more of your profile pic! Is it on art station, or do you have a portfolio/links you would be willing to share? The model looks clean and lighting is very soft and nice! Is it a high poly model, or normals on a game ready model? What was it rendered in? *starved for pce art discussion* Hi Gredler! Nice to see another professional artist on the boards. I often (erroneously) assume most people who frequent these kind of places tend to be gamers/consumers more than creatives. But this sub-forum proves there are some talented developers in the PCE community. Pretty intriguing to read the developer discussions. Before becoming a VFX artist I spent years doing pixel art in the Amiga Demo scene and also did some pixel art on the C64. I recently bought a license of Cosmigo's Pro-Motion with the intent of doing some pixel art again. 3D pipelines can be so convoluted and tiresome (today, Maya just doesn't want to cooperate ), that I often long for the simplicity and directness of Pixel art. But alas, no time. Still committed to give it a go sooner rather than later, so thank you for your kind offer of help. I'm sure I'll have some questions about PCE palettes/limitations, file-formats, etc. The PC-Engine in my profile pic is a turn-table of a model I made to teach myself how to use SoftImage XSI, many years ago. I think I modeled it back in 2004/2005 or so. I love that design so much I just had to model it. Interesting anecdote, I actually received a message from PCEWorks Tobias a few years ago. He asked for a copy of the model. I'm pretty sure he was cooking up some plans to make some money with it. Needless to say I declined. I'll see if I can dig out the old renders and post some higher resolution renders. I mean, you could always officially get your feet wet on PCE pixel art with a contribution to a PCE demo hahah. I've been wanting to put a team together, or just be a member of a demoscene team haha.
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Post by gredler on Jan 9, 2020 18:50:01 GMT
What I've been doing more lately, since my time is also somewhat limited, is pixeling the art on my android phone, then cleaning it up and making it game ready with pro-motion. It's very quick to index the colors and order the palette. Most of my progress on sprites has been mobile drawing 80% and pc cleanup 20% - not so much tilemaps/sets, I've not found a mobile solution for that). This is what I've been using lately, Pixel Studio Pro. apps.apple.com/app/id1404203859play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.PixelStudio&hl=en_USIt doesn't export into indexed color, but it does export RGBA 24/32bit PNG which is easy enough to import into anything else for indexing. What I also like are the nice animation and layering tools, but also has all the basics like transforms, gradients, pattern brush painting, etc. Very robust for a phone option, and it becomes a lot easier to make progress when you can crunch out a sprite in 15 minutes without busting out a larger drawing device. I imagine turboxray's pc engine specific image audit and alter tools would make mobile/photoshop to pce painless, but knowing there is literally anyone who is also interested in using promotion for PCE makes me want to make a basic pitfall avoidance tutorial; where to set what project settings to make sure images and tilemaps export clean and predictably correct from promotion to pce. Pipedream aside: Once we finish our current PCE project I want to start focusing on Houdini and Substance based personal projects, but I'll have pixel art in mind as I start developing more tools for those - I'm hoping to make some node based procedural assets that can quickly export for PCE someday
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Post by DarkKobold on Jan 10, 2020 2:37:46 GMT
I don't understand the demo scene. Shouldn't pixel art be made for... games?
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Post by turboxray on Jan 10, 2020 15:43:10 GMT
I don't understand the demo scene. Shouldn't pixel art be made for... games? Artist do pixel art for non-existing games, just for the sake of doing art. Same for chiptunes.
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Post by gredler on Jan 10, 2020 19:04:02 GMT
I could definitely see the fun and benefits of not doing a full production game such as a demo. There is a lot of commitment to doing a full production game, for one. Also unchaining the potential of a system by removing the need to worry about gameplay logic and design brings a level of freedom and range of potential that can't be had in game. I can only imagine there is a lot to be learned from doing a demo that could be incorporated into game development techniques. I personally would rather work on a short game jam or full production then a tech demo, but I can see the appeal for someone more concerned with pushing the hardware than creating a gameplay experience.
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Post by DarkKobold on Jan 10, 2020 22:53:29 GMT
I could definitely see the fun and benefits of not doing a full production game such as a demo. There is a lot of commitment to doing a full production game, for one. Also unchaining the potential of a system by removing the need to worry about gameplay logic and design brings a level of freedom and range of potential that can't be had in game. I can only imagine there is a lot to be learned from doing a demo that could be incorporated into game development techniques. I personally would rather work on a short game jam or full production then a tech demo, but I can see the appeal for someone more concerned with pushing the hardware than creating a gameplay experience. Yeah, I'm somewhat myopic in that sense. I don't have any desire to "push the hardware," I just hope to make fun gameplay experiences for an old system.
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Post by monstersgoboom on Jan 11, 2020 2:23:34 GMT
Hahaha ... please tell your friends, we could do with some more programmers, artists and musicians over here! Artist here. Currently working at Square Enix, Visual Works division in Tokyo, but with 17+ years of prior Visual Effects experience for film & TV. One day I hope to pixel my very own PC-Engine HuCard game. Just way to busy right now to even dream of firing up a Pixel app. I was terribly excited by that Golden Axe effort Black Tiger et al. were working on many moons ago. Such a shame that fizzled out. That did look great.would love to see your stuff !
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