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Post by Black_Tiger on Mar 17, 2019 18:43:53 GMT
The more frames of animation you add, the more you degrade the gameplay as well.
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Post by spenoza on Mar 17, 2019 19:14:27 GMT
It’s never that straightforward. The answer is simply, it depends.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2019 19:16:26 GMT
The more frames of animation you add, the more you degrade the gameplay as well. ok gunpei yokoi
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Post by Black_Tiger on Mar 18, 2019 15:54:47 GMT
The more frames of animation you add, the more you degrade the gameplay as well. ok gunpei yokoi The best balance is being generous with frames in animations are essesentially decoration and can be canceled instantly at any time. The best/tightest gameplay allows you to turn, duck, move, jump, shoot, etc instantly, with a delay to run several frames of animation. An attack like a sword swipe having several frames works great when it can be interupted by the next swing. It is still a nice touch to have those extra frames for the times when you only swing once and don't move until it's complete. Games that make you wait to move again while an animation plays out suffer unnecessarily. You should be able to turn on a dime instead of waiting for the turning anination. Antics are very important in animation, especially for something like jumping. Movements should also overshoot and bounce back, but gameplay movement suffers when everything is slippery. That's why it's better to jump instantly and just run cancelable frames while in the air. The lower the resolution and the smaller the object, the fewer frames that are required visually and fewer are possible. Striking the right balance can make or break gameplay. 16-bit was the first true "next generation" in that too much flash was done just for the sake of it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 17:27:40 GMT
The best balance is being generous with frames in animations are essesentially decoration and can be canceled instantly at any time. The more frames of animation you add, the more you degrade the gameplay as well.First phrase already and you contradicted your own post. What's your point, exactly? Feels like you're describing a certain Capcom Power System No. 1 arcade game in your post about games being the best with several, but interruptable, frames of animation. Not to mention the game that vastly improves over its predecessor, Osman, which probably has lots more sprite frames in everything.
Outside of the fixed trajectory jump (in which you cannot change direction mid-air and has nothing to do with muh animayshon) the game plays fine and if you remove the fancy anti gravity parts and hanging from ledges it's probably functionally similar to Valis, a game where I remember having to SLIDE ACROSS AN UNEXISTANT FLOOR TO CLEAR A GAP YOU OTHERWISE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO JUMP OVER (Valis III). (edit: seems like that also happens in Valis 1, lol) Valis 1 (the remake) seems to be the best of the bunch and it's just an ok platformer.
If you guys don't like Strider it's fine since everyone has their own tastes but those arguments are kinda weak.
16-bit was the first true "next generation" in that too much flash was done just for the sake of it. old game good, new game bad
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Post by spenoza on Mar 18, 2019 18:17:33 GMT
Accolade's Test Drive on the Apple II had a ridiculously long load, and part of that was so that after the very initial load, it could display the Accolade logo and then play really scratchy speech over the logo, saying "Accolade Presents!", after which it would return to loading and eventually let you play a game. No, flash over function has been a part of games right from the very beginning. Even before the beginning, with pinball.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 18:48:09 GMT
Accolade's Test Drive on the Apple II had a ridiculously long load, and part of that was so that after the very initial load, it could display the Accolade logo and then play really scratchy speech over the logo, saying "Accolade Presents!", after which it would return to loading and eventually let you play a game. No, flash over function has been a part of games right from the very beginning. Even before the beginning, with pinball. The intros are more iconic than the games themselves
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TailChao
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I Must Eat Muffin Gear.
Posts: 68
Fave PCE Game Overall: Bonk's Adventure
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Post by TailChao on Mar 18, 2019 19:01:17 GMT
It would be a challenge ... but that's what makes it an interesting project, together with the idea of trying to see what the missing SuperGrafx Strider port could potentially have been like. It is far more intriguing to take on a difficult task, and maybe fail (but with a good story to tell), than it is to just do something ordinary. Agreed on both points, and I'd definitely be interested in the results. Visually, yeah - it's not too far of a stretch. I think the most promising aspect is that most of the existing stage designs and assets would carry over to the SuperGrafx's two VDCs well. In that there's not a huge amount of inter-object priority and you could likely get away with having the player character and his numerous after-images on one VDC and most of the enemies on the other. Little texture duplication, bla bla. But I have no idea how much is going on under the hood in order to make the arcade version's movement feel as good as it does. I see what you guys mean by it being "clunky" and I agree. But the game is no throwaway either. It lives on in our memories for a reason, and for me that reason goes back to what I said above about it's imaginative design. Someone's artistic soul was put into that game and it shows. Oh, absolutely. Just the mention in this topic had me listening to the soundtrack and thinking about ways to do similarly interesting character movement for the past few days. I think Kouichi Yotsui was the designer on both. But yeah, at least we got to see a refinement of his ambitions for Strider in Osman / Canon Dancer.
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Post by Black_Tiger on Mar 18, 2019 20:09:43 GMT
The best balance is being generous with frames in animations are essesentially decoration and can be canceled instantly at any time. The more frames of animation you add, the more you degrade the gameplay as well.First phrase already and you contradicted your own post. What's your point, exactly? Feels like you're describing a certain Capcom Power System No. 1 arcade game in your post about games being the best with several, but interruptable, frames of animation. Not to mention the game that vastly improves over its predecessor, Osman, which probably has lots more sprite frames in everything.
Outside of the fixed trajectory jump (in which you cannot change direction mid-air and has nothing to do with muh animayshon) the game plays fine and if you remove the fancy anti gravity parts and hanging from ledges it's probably functionally similar to Valis, a game where I remember having to SLIDE ACROSS AN UNEXISTANT FLOOR TO CLEAR A GAP YOU OTHERWISE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO JUMP OVER (Valis III). (edit: seems like that also happens in Valis 1, lol) Valis 1 (the remake) seems to be the best of the bunch and it's just an ok platformer.
If you guys don't like Strider it's fine since everyone has their own tastes but those arguments are kinda weak.
16-bit was the first true "next generation" in that too much flash was done just for the sake of it. old game good, new game bad I was responding originally responding to something specific. I very little time for individual posts. Strider's issues are different, but large sprites in a game that requires animation for everything is digging yourself a big hole and is difficult to get right. Strider suffers from awkward key frames and poses and the cartwheel jumping frames make it harder to feel the flow of your character. Moving at a brisk pace while shuffling as though the pkayer sprite is walking a tight rope us also offputting.
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Post by Mathius on Mar 18, 2019 20:12:54 GMT
Yotsui! That was his name. I had it wrong lol
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Post by lukester on Mar 18, 2019 21:38:12 GMT
Strider suffers from awkward key frames and poses and the cartwheel jumping frames make it harder to feel the flow of your character. Moving at a brisk pace while shuffling as though the pkayer sprite is walking a tight rope us also offputting. Strider is one of the easier arcade games out there, despite the amount of enemies and flying drones the game throws at you. The game truly doesn't get difficult until the final stage, where the difficulty lies not in controls but the placements of all the spikes in a zero gravity chamber. The cartwheel jump allows you to easily attack enemies from BOTH SIDES while moving at a constant horizontal pace. Whether walking on the ground or flying in the air, you can constantly attack enemies without having to halt movement, like say...in Castlevania (a great series, but just using as an example). It's one of the best features of the game.
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Post by paranoiadragon on Mar 21, 2019 21:59:56 GMT
An NES remix of Strider on the Turbob would be rad. Use whatever sprites & tiles possible from the arcade game I suppose. I've never actually played thru it, but I believe it's considered a Metroidvania. If so, it'd be icing on the cake to have an ingame map.
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