Dev tools: MAPeD-SPReD (win/linux)

[hyperfighting]

0x8bitdev

Actually, your layout looks strange... Could you please send me a reference game that 100% reflects your ideas, so that I could suggest something.

If you think Super Mario Bros 1 for NES you have platforms and if you fall into pits you die.

In this case the platforms appear on the top two rows of the map open air and outer space and the bottom two bottom rows are the "PIT" 

In SMB when you fall into a PIT you die. In this game if you fall into a PIT you fall two screens and if you have no lives left you die when you hit the ground.

If you use the video as a guide there are four selectable characters two on the ground and two in the sky. The players on the ground are chasing the players in the sky (Accept we as the player cannot see them doing that but that's what they are doing. If one of the Zuks gets knocked out of the sky one of the Zuks on the ground springs into the air to take the place of the fallen solider.

0x8bitdev

As for the 'Skip zero CHR\Block' options... By default, all the CHRs\Blocks\Tiles are zero-filled arrays. So, all the blocks data are linked to the zero character in CHR bank and all the tiles data are linked to the zero block (all zeros). But, after importing, when that zero character in CHR bank is filled with some tile, you'll see that character in all unused blocks and tiles. Thus, all your unused data will be filled with "abrakadabra" or with the first character in a CHR bank.



This option just helps to make things clear. It reserves the first character in CHR bank and the first block 2x2 and all your unused blocks\tiles look empty. You can see where your data ends.

That reserved character and block may be deleted during the optimization process.

I noticed this in the auto creation of the 4x4 blocks and Auto Generated Screens etc...This is a great tip I'm gonna try it out and hopefully make it a staple in the import process!

0x8bitdev

p.s.: You can use the MAPeD version from the development build. The latest version has optimized map rendering. Now it's a much faster.

Thanks for the tip! I'll get dev version rolling!

Sorry I never understood quoting properly....I'm learning 

[0x8bitdev]

Another small update for the SPD-render v0.3. Added a function to directly load SG data to VRAM for PACKED sprites.
All details here.

[0x8bitdev]

May 3, 2022 12:01:40 GMT hyperfighting said:

If you think Super Mario Bros 1 for NES you have platforms and if you fall into pits you die.

In this case the platforms appear on the top two rows of the map open air and outer space and the bottom two bottom rows are the "PIT" 

In SMB when you fall into a PIT you die. In this game if you fall into a PIT you fall two screens and if you have no lives left you die when you hit the ground.

If you use the video as a guide there are four selectable characters two on the ground and two in the sky. The players on the ground are chasing the players in the sky (Accept we as the player cannot see them doing that but that's what they are doing. If one of the Zuks gets knocked out of the sky one of the Zuks on the ground springs into the air to take the place of the fallen solider.

Problem #1:
You have merged a main menu + game level + pit space in one MAP. How many levels will be in your game? And how do you plan to make other levels, with main menu too or ?.. 

Problem #2:
Adjacent screen marks. They will not work in this case. It's better to delete them.

Solution:
Main menu, game levels, pit space are seperate maps. The pit space is a map with two screens. When player falls into a pit, level map switches to the pit map and player continues to fall.

Question: A game level structure is the same like in SMB ? I mean horizontal movement across the ground part and sky as switchable part of a level? And a game level switches to sky part when you reach the top position?

May 3, 2022 12:01:40 GMT hyperfighting said:

Sorry I never understood quoting properly....I'm learning 

For me it's a lot of copy/paste. But it works. 

[hyperfighting]

Thanks very much for your input on the Map Layouts.

At present this is what I have:

TITLE/PLAYER SELECT (BANK 0)

NOTE: Due to the vertical movement I believe I will need to have the mountain and pit imbedded here.



Max Number of Files Exceeded Next Post.

[hyperfighting]

MAP LEVEL TILES (BANK 1)

NOTE: The mess at the bottom is my attempt insert for 4x4 place holders for other tileset's.

NOTE: Upon import I really like having all the 4x4 tileset's imported but I had to manually delete all the useless "Screens" one by one. I have a comment imbedded in an image below. Its major knit picking and I don't want to sound like a little bee but just cause this is an epic adventure I figured I would report my findings.

NOTE: We see a redundancy with the mountain tiles from BANK 0 loaded again (I don't think this can be helped)

[hyperfighting]

PIT TILES (BANK 2)

[hyperfighting]

ATTRACT MODE: (BANK 3)
NOTE: I realized there is a STAR that the inductees stand for their intros. I tried to bundle it with title screen because parts of the star are present there but no dice as the tiles overflowed when I bundled it with the title screen.
NOTE: The star is more centered than the one featured in the tiltle screen so it creates a set of unique tiles.
NOTE: Added a knit pick regarding the deletion of multiple unwanted screens.
NOTE: Darn it I wish this loaded into BANK 0

 


CONCERNS:

Sorry in advance my hand should be slapped I am not as well read as I should be sorry if there are redundancies in the questions below and documentation. I'm in a major rush and just want to get this posted.
I will definitely better consult the quick start and slap myself for you =)

Reordering Banks
Can I reorder Bank data if I imported data in the wrong order?

Background Colour:
When I use magenta 255, 0, 255 I am attempting to have the background colour match the PCE's set Background colour BANK 2 and BANK 3 seem to have done the right thing in setting a background colour because those two appear to have their backgrounds imported in black but BANK 1 imported as Magenta just curious about this side of things in the event I am screwing myself on the background colour somehow. 

Adjusting Layout Widths and Heights for the level I pulled 2x10 screens out of the air If I want to adjust the same layout and make it 2x20 is can I do that without destroying the existing map?

The best way I can liken this design to SMB is.
In SMB you are platforming left to right. In this game you are doing the same thing but you may be able to advance 1 or more screens vertically (SMB 3).
In SMB when you die the game halts and sets you back to a checkpoint. In this game you get see where the pit leads and your character is rendered unconscious. If you have additional players they will fly to the top screen to keep the quest going.
In both cases the SMB and Zuks the player restarts at the checkpoint but Zuks doesn't stop the action instead a little animation sequence plays out before the inevitable.  
 

[0x8bitdev]

Now it's better! 

And it's better if you remove adjacent screen marks from the main menu and the pit maps. They don't make any sense in this maps.

And about the mountain... Is the mountain a synchronization point between the main menu mountain and a game level one?

[hyperfighting]

Thanks a bunch! I will remove those markings in the Title and Pit Maps.
Yes when the mountain is a synchronization point once the blocks fall into place and the Zuks are standing the tiles the level will begin.

[0x8bitdev]

May 3, 2022 19:39:26 GMT hyperfighting said:

ATTRACT MODE: (BANK 3)
NOTE: I realized there is a STAR that the inductees stand for their intros. I tried to bundle it with title screen because parts of the star are present there but no dice as the tiles overflowed when I bundled it with the title screen.
NOTE: The star is more centered than the one featured in the tiltle screen so it creates a set of unique tiles.
NOTE: Added a knit pick regarding the deletion of multiple unwanted screens.
NOTE: Darn it I wish this loaded into BANK 0

It's okay! The 'Attraction Mode' is an independent scene that doesn't intersect with the other ones. So it may has its own CHR bank.

And I'll add deletion of multiple selected screens.

May 3, 2022 19:39:26 GMT hyperfighting said:

CONCERNS:

Sorry in advance my hand should be slapped I am not as well read as I should be sorry if there are redundancies in the questions below and documentation. I'm in a major rush and just want to get this posted.
I will definitely better consult the quick start and slap myself for you =)

Dont'worry!

May 3, 2022 19:39:26 GMT hyperfighting said:

Reordering Banks
Can I reorder Bank data if I imported data in the wrong order?

No, you can't do that at the moment.

May 3, 2022 19:39:26 GMT hyperfighting said:

Background Colour:
When I use magenta 255, 0, 255 I am attempting to have the background colour match the PCE's set Background colour BANK 2 and BANK 3 seem to have done the right thing in setting a background colour because those two appear to have their backgrounds imported in black but BANK 1 imported as Magenta just curious about this side of things in the event I am screwing myself on the background colour somehow. 

If background color isn't in its place after import, you can fix that. Click the "Swap Colors" button, and select two colors you want to swap. This operation doesn't affect graphics, it just changes colors order in active palette.

May 3, 2022 19:39:26 GMT hyperfighting said:

Adjusting Layout Widths and Heights for the level I pulled 2x10 screens out of the air If I want to adjust the same layout and make it 2x20 is can I do that without destroying the existing map?

Yes, you can. Click the "+R" button to add a new column of cells at the right side. Play with the "+U"/"-U"/"+D"/"-D"/"+L"/"-L"/"+R"/"-R" butons and you'll understand how it works.

May 3, 2022 19:39:26 GMT hyperfighting said:

The best way I can liken this design to SMB is.
In SMB you are platforming left to right. In this game you are doing the same thing but you may be able to advance 1 or more screens vertically (SMB 3).
In SMB when you die the game halts and sets you back to a checkpoint. In this game you get see where the pit leads and your character is rendered unconscious. If you have additional players they will fly to the top screen to keep the quest going.
In both cases the SMB and Zuks the player restarts at the checkpoint but Zuks doesn't stop the action instead a little animation sequence plays out before the inevitable.   

I just wanted to know how a player from the ground gets into the sky part of a level to understand what a map type to use bi- or multi-directional.
The SMB3 uses a multidirectional scrolling in their levels. So I guess, this type of a map will be more suitable for Zuks than bi-directional.

Since the main direction of a game map is horizontal, when exporting, you need to use 'Multidir scroll' with 'Column' ordered data.

p.s.: you need to delete the adjacent screen marks from a game map they are useless for multidirectional maps.

[hyperfighting]

"It's time to load up my nine and do my daily crime!"

First off thanks so much for the replies I intently read the help and realized the majority of my questions are already answered in there! Sorry for being that guy!
As I keep pulling back the layers I'm seeing how remarkable this thing real is! Hats off really and truly!

I was going to request that you allow the export of layouts in the form of .png images and then I pressed export! Wild!

Big thanks for the multi screen delete option!
Normal people that import standard tilesets won't have an issue put if you are like me and do all kinds of stuff to your source image for the purpose of getting some solid screens and 4x4 blocks on import.
You will find alot of 4x4 auto generated screens and thus the need to delete them.
I find it so cool that your image can A) Be broken into screens and B) be broken into 4x4 blocks too cool. C) Not to mention the auto palette management is bonkers.

Reordering Banks could be a nice one if possible not super important just for the OCD I guess. (I also guess those so called OCD people should plan their banks in advance to avoid the problem all together 

I managed to break ground on some code experimentation!
I admit I'm scared of compiling the dev version and super eager to see the screens in the game environment so I used the release version. (I'm hoping tonight I can attempt to compile the dev version)
So I made what I believe to be a revelation (it's kinda lame but here goes) The "Pit" is in the "Titlescreen" gfx so I don't think I need the "Pit" in a separate bank after all. (Profound I know)

You mentioned to remove the markings on the "Tiltle Screen" and "Pit" but I was lost as how to move the map without the markings defined.

 

We move from the Import business to the Export business

Before we get started let me just say I think Bi-Directional is fine for Zuks. SMB3 was a bad reference I just wanted to reference screens above the player at the time I couldn't remember if SMB1 had screens above the player but thinking back to those levels where you are jumping on giant mushrooms I think it does anywayz beside the point.
In Zuks when you respawn from a pit you will only ever travel back to the screen you fell from or in other words the screen directly above you.
I'm all hyped for the optimizations bi-directional scrolling brings!!!! 



These are what I believe to be my preferred settings.

1. To Column or to Row? That is the question? Is one more optimal than the other?
2. Property ID per CHR sounds right for collisions etc....
This is a wild question but my mind goes here. Can I Dynamically swap 4x4 blocks? My thought is lets say the top two blocks are blank or a single colour and the bottom two blocks are cherry icons like SMB coins but cherries...I'm thinking the Zuks love to eat cherries. Anyway, char Collison states the Zuk ran into the first cherry so another 4x4 block that has one cherry in the far right corner replaces the block with two cherries etc etc....I know 2x2 mode is better for this but I'm a sucker for punishment I think I can make it work in 4x4 mode if it's allowed.
3.Adjacent scr inds (I saw this little dozy of 25% savings and said yes please!)...Is it the best way to optimize the map?
4. I threw the BAT in there just incase that is the resolution rosetta stone to achieve 320 x 224 resolution

When I hit export I got warning message seems to happen everytime regarding exceeding size. If I had to guess this might be in there for other platforms with different size constrictions? 

The codez!
  
I'm curious if there is a little list of calls I can reference outside of the samples?
Here's what I have been playing with based on the example files etc

//Jump to Next Map
display_next_map();

//Input commads
mpd_move_left();
mpd_move_right();
mpd_move_up();
mpd_move_down();

void JUMP_MAP_DOWN() - Made this up think its what's required based on the samples
{
    mpd_check_adj_screen( ADJ_SCR_DOWN );
    disp_off();

    vsync();
    mpd_draw_screen();
   disp_on();
} 

//Refresh the map (required?)
mpd_update_screen( TRUE );

If I don't need the markings what function do I use to automatically scroll I was just planning to use the "mpd_move" functions or is there a better way?
Is there like a function where I can insert a scroll speed and a vertical or horizontal stop position?

On the tip of my mind seen in the example above how can I "display_next_map();" and "jump to a map index of my choosing" aka summon the PIT. 
In the image above the Title Screen is accessible vertically but how can I jump to the blue sky in the PIT via codez?

I know PCE has a wide range of resolutions so I figure I would attempt to reformat Zuks from a 256x224 to a 320x224 format.
The image above has borders on the sides of the screens etc. I was hoping if I exported a 320x224 map it would display but it just truncated the last 64 pixels of data.
Is it a setting through HuC I wonder or is a support thing required to be added to MAPeD. I know this question screams amateur but I have to ask it. 

One final and crazy question for the bonus round. Can you have bi-directional and multi-maps in the same project? If you did two separate exports and some how ensured you did not overwrite banks from the previous export?

 
 

[0x8bitdev]

May 5, 2022 0:34:21 GMT hyperfighting said:

I was going to request that you allow the export of layouts in the form of .png images and then I pressed export! Wild!

Do you feel the magic in the air? 

May 5, 2022 0:34:21 GMT hyperfighting said:

Big thanks for the multi screen delete option!
Normal people that import standard tilesets won't have an issue put if you are like me and do all kinds of stuff to your source image for the purpose of getting some solid screens and 4x4 blocks on import.
You will find alot of 4x4 auto generated screens and thus the need to delete them.

The problem begins when you are mixing a map screens and tiles in the same image. Otherwise, you can import tiles/blocks with unchecked 'Game map' option. As a result, layout and screens will not be created.

May 5, 2022 0:34:21 GMT hyperfighting said:

Reordering Banks could be a nice one if possible not super important just for the OCD I guess. (I also guess those so called OCD people should plan their banks in advance to avoid the problem all together 

Yes, I know it's a useful option. But it's a question of design... I mean design of UI.   I need to think how to do it right.

May 5, 2022 0:34:21 GMT hyperfighting said:

I managed to break ground on some code experimentation!
I admit I'm scared of compiling the dev version and super eager to see the screens in the game environment so I used the release version. (I'm hoping tonight I can attempt to compile the dev version)

You don't need to compile anything except your HuC program. Just take compiled tools from the dev build archive and use them.

May 5, 2022 0:34:21 GMT hyperfighting said:

So I made what I believe to be a revelation (it's kinda lame but here goes) The "Pit" is in the "Titlescreen" gfx so I don't think I need the "Pit" in a separate bank after all. (Profound I know)

It's a quite good solution. And it's a question of data composition. You can fit into one data bank as many things as you can. BUT... Take into account that all your created data banks can be switchable in your project. And the smaller your data bank, the fastest the data is copid to VRAM.
Do you remember the item №2 in my posts on using the SPReD/MAPeD?

2. You need a plan!

You must understand what data banks you will use and how you will work with them.
For examle, there are many ways:

1. The Main Menu & Pit in one bank. This bank is statically placed in VRAM.

pros: This data is always available in VRAM. And you don't need to switch between a game level bank and a pit data banks.
cons: You can't reuse VRAM that this bank resides in.

2. The Main Menu & Pit in one bank. This bank is dynamically placed in VRAM.

pros: You can reuse VRAM for other purposes.
cons: Frequent switching of large amounts of data ROM<->VRAM (if this bank is really large). It's just a bad design!

3. The Main Menu & Pit in separate banks. The main menu is statically placed in VRAM. The Pit bank dynamically switched.

pros: ...
cons: ...

4. ...

I hope you've understood what I mean. So as I mentioned in those posts, take your notepad and write down all these things...

May 5, 2022 0:34:21 GMT hyperfighting said:

You mentioned to remove the markings on the "Tiltle Screen" and "Pit" but I was lost as how to move the map without the markings defined.

This is the place where we must put a bold point on 'adjacent screen marks'. I see you like them 

1. The 'adjacent screen marks' are ONLY for bi-directional maps.
2. Bi-directional maps are maps with seamless scrolling left/right/up/down. Usually these maps describe a certain trajectory in one layout!
3. Not all bi-directional maps require 'adjacent screen marks'!
4. So when should I use the 'adjacent screen marks' you can ask me?   The 'adjacent screen marks' are used only in those places of maps that can not be clearly described. Just take a look at the following example projects in MAPeD: './data/scroll_bidir_ADJ_scr_MASKS_TEST.mapedpce' (one map that uses these marks) and './data/scroll_bidir_multimap.mapedpce' (three maps that are not use these marks).

If a trajectory of your map can be described as a straight or broken line - 'adjacent screen masks' are useless!!!

May 5, 2022 0:34:21 GMT hyperfighting said:

We move from the Import business to the Export business

Before we get started let me just say I think Bi-Directional is fine for Zuks. SMB3 was a bad reference I just wanted to reference screens above the player at the time I couldn't remember if SMB1 had screens above the player but thinking back to those levels where you are jumping on giant mushrooms I think it does anywayz beside the point.
In Zuks when you respawn from a pit you will only ever travel back to the screen you fell from or in other words the screen directly above you.

Ohh... Again... If we have not resolved this question, we can not move further. And this question is still open.
I do not really understand how do you imagine your levels.
There is no point in discussing the details further.

Sorry I'm skipping all your questions below.

Send me 100000000% reference game that reflects your game levels.
I still don't understand how player moves from the ground part to the sky.

If it's like in SMB1 - you need a simple linear bi-directional maps; this case requires SWITCHING from the ground to the sky!
If it's like in SMB3 - you need a usuall multi-directional maps; in this case the ground and the sky are the same space with SMOOTH SCROLLING from one to another.

This is a key point. You've to understand what you are doing. I do not understand so far... 

[0x8bitdev]

MAPeD & HuC:

Bi-directional map:

- Bi-directional map is a map with seamless scrolling left/right/up/down.
- Usually this map describe a certain trajectory in one layout.
- A trajectory of a bi-directional map can be described as a straight or broken line.

NOTE: A special case of bi-directional map is a map with a line of screens (vertcal or horizontal).
NOTE: Start screen must be defined for all maps in the editor, otherwise the first active screen will be defined as a start one;

Mpd-render (MAPeD's tilemap render for HuC) implementation features:
- Displaying a map from a start screen defined in the editor;
- Displaying a map from any screen;
- Displaying a map at any free position isn't available(!);
- Scene movement from screen to screen with a seamless scrolling along a map left/right/up/down;
- Use of 'adjacent screen masks' that describe a special trajectory;
- Tile properties detection by X, Y position within a screen space;

Multi-directional map:

- Multi-directional map is described as rectangular area filled with screens.

NOTE: A special case of multi-directional map is a map with a line of screens (vertcal or horizontal).
NOTE: Start screen must be defined for all maps in the editor, otherwise the first screen will be defined as a start one;

Mpd-render implementation features:
- Displaying a map from a start screen defined in the editor;
- Displaying a map from any screen;
- Displaying a map from any X, Y position;
- Free scene movement at any direction within a map;
- Tile properties detection by X, Y position within a map space;

LIMITATIONS:

1. A Bi-directional and a multi-directional map MUST use only ONE CHR bank!
Using screens from a multiple data banks in one map are not allowed!
The only exception to the rule is a bi-directional map with static screens switching (without scrolling!). Such bi-directional maps can use screens from any CHR banks.

2. The Mpd-render uses either bi-directional or multi-directional maps as input data. Mixing of different types of maps in one HuC project are not allowed at the moment!
But with a reasonable design of your maps this limitation can be bypassed.


The main post with the latest updates is here

[hyperfighting]

There is definitely magic in the air!

0x8bitdev

Yes, I know it's a useful option. But it's a question of design... I mean design of UI. I need to think how to do it right.

I have a thought I believe follows your design scheme with another swap option in the Tiles Tab.
Potentially use the the same mechanism you use for "Swap Colors".
"Swap Banks" The screen has two drop downs listing the active Banks side by side. (I have no idea how difficult this actually is on the back end just a thought)

0x8bitdev

You don't need to compile anything except your HuC program. Just take compiled tools from the dev build archive and use them.

I got 0.70b Baby!

0x8bitdev

It's a quite good solution. And it's a question of data composition. You can fit into one data bank as many things as you can. BUT... Take into account that all your created data banks can be switchable in your project. And the smaller your data bank, the fastest the data is copid to VRAM.

Do you remember the item №2 in my posts on using the SPReD/MAPeD?



2. You need a plan!



You must understand what data banks you will use and how you will work with them.

For examle, there are many ways:



1. The Main Menu & Pit in one bank. This bank is statically placed in VRAM.



pros: This data is always available in VRAM. And you don't need to switch between a game level bank and a pit data banks.
cons: You can't reuse VRAM that this bank resides in.



2. The Main Menu & Pit in one bank. This bank is dynamically placed in VRAM.



pros: You can reuse VRAM for other purposes.

cons: Frequent switching of large amounts of data ROM<->VRAM (if this bank is really large). It's just a bad design!



3. The Main Menu & Pit in separate banks. The main menu is statically placed in VRAM. The Pit bank dynamically switched.



pros: ...

cons: ...



4. ...



I hope you've understood what I mean. So as I mentioned in those posts, take your notepad and write down all these things...

Thanks so much for this....I will definitely return and return to your initial Sprite and Map Breakdowns - For those following 0x8bitdev includes a very nice I'll call a "general ledger" regarding sprites and maps again that info can be found here and it will be a primary reference for anyone looking to get their hands dirty. MAPeD and SPReD (Starter)

Based on your explanation I will opt to retract my revelation and continue on with the "PIT" being stored in its own BANK. The PIT will have a relatively small tileset and maybe I can afford to always have it loaded.

0x8bitdev

This is the place where we must put a bold point on 'adjacent screen marks'. I see you like them



1. The 'adjacent screen marks' are ONLY for bi-directional maps.

2. Bi-directional maps are maps with seamless scrolling left/right/up/down. Usually these maps describe a certain trajectory in one layout!

3. Not all bi-directional maps require 'adjacent screen marks'!

4. So when should I use the 'adjacent screen marks' you can ask me? The 'adjacent screen marks' are used only in those places of maps that can not be clearly described. Just take a look at the following example projects in MAPeD: './data/scroll_bidir_ADJ_scr_MASKS_TEST.mapedpce' (one map that uses these marks) and './data/scroll_bidir_multimap.mapedpce' (three maps that are not use these marks).



If a trajectory of your map can be described as a straight or broken line - 'adjacent screen masks' are useless!!!

Dually noted I will remove all trajectories that follow a "standard path" vertical or horizontal need not have markings.
I will refer to the sample that demonstrates no markings.

I'm now on task to whip up a diagram. I have the picture in my mind I'll see if I can properly draw it up!
I am heavily leaning toward bi-directional (A little voice is telling me the savings will allow for a better overall game...I'm hoping more room for GFX, Sound etc)

[0x8bitdev]

May 5, 2022 16:16:42 GMT hyperfighting said:

I have a thought I believe follows your design scheme with another swap option in the Tiles Tab.
Potentially use the the same mechanism you use for "Swap Colors".
"Swap Banks" The screen has two drop downs listing the active Banks side by side. (I have no idea how difficult this actually is on the back end just a thought)

The problem is where to insert this button.
Compromise: Main Menu->CHR Bank->Reorder CHR Banks. And the main UI leave as is.