a
Deep Blooper
Posts: 40
Fave PCE Shooter: 1943 Kai
Fave PCE Platformer: what's a platformer?
Fave PCE RPG: No.
Currently Playing: Soldier Blade Special
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Post by a on Nov 6, 2020 22:48:50 GMT
I mean without the CD add on. People like to talk like the CD add on is just part of the system, they call CD games simply PC Engine games so often, omitting the fact that its a CD. It seems that the PCE CD “is” the PC Engine to a lot of people. It’s almost like the original console has been erased in the minds of these people.. .. Why? What is wrong with it? Is the base PC Engine so lacking that you MUST own a CD drive to enjoy it? Personally I would rather play Super Star Soldier than Nexzr, and I’d rather play Raiden with the chip music. And many other good hucard titles. PC Engine is a great console!
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keithcourage
Punkic Cyborg
https://www.facebook.com/turbografxfan/
Posts: 231
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Post by keithcourage on Nov 7, 2020 12:10:38 GMT
I think it's because Castlevania Rondo of Blood is the first game most people think about if they didn't own a PCE/Turbo when they were younger. Meaning they don't realize that there are plenty of other good games.
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Post by spenoza on Nov 7, 2020 14:27:49 GMT
Even NEC and Hudson backed off the card medium in favor of CDs. That said, I do agree the base console could have had more development. More mappers like the SF2 mapper would have helped greatly.
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Post by Black_Tiger on Nov 7, 2020 16:21:19 GMT
The CD-ROM doesn't add anything other than a couple optional audio channels. What it does do though is bottleneck the content than can be run at once, so cart games or potential alternative formats will always allow much more of the PC Engine's performance/potential to be used.
People talk about the CD software more because it was the main format. It's the same reason people don't talk more about Sega My Card games, Mega Modem games, SNES Satteleview games or FDS games.
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Post by sunteam_paul on Nov 7, 2020 20:04:43 GMT
They always planned the PC Engine to have a CD-Rom unit. I see 'PC Engine' as a blanket terms that covers both CD and card. The CD-Rom is not essential, but it is a significant portion of the software library.
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a
Deep Blooper
Posts: 40
Fave PCE Shooter: 1943 Kai
Fave PCE Platformer: what's a platformer?
Fave PCE RPG: No.
Currently Playing: Soldier Blade Special
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Post by a on Nov 7, 2020 20:51:35 GMT
Even NEC and Hudson backed off the card medium in favor of CDs. That said, I do agree the base console could have had more development. More mappers like the SF2 mapper would have helped greatly. Hmm Hucard lasted from 1987 till 1994 right? Thats basically the whole console gen.. The DUO/R seems like it was considered to be the successor to the PCE console. But it seems like releases slowed down at that point anyway... when Hucard support ended, TTI completely abandoned the US market I’m surprised it lasted as long as it did, honestly
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Post by Black_Tiger on Nov 8, 2020 0:03:37 GMT
Even NEC and Hudson backed off the card medium in favor of CDs. That said, I do agree the base console could have had more development. More mappers like the SF2 mapper would have helped greatly. Hmm Hucard lasted from 1987 till 1994 right? Thats basically the whole console gen.. The DUO/R seems like it was considered to be the successor to the PCE console. But it seems like releases slowed down at that point anyway... when Hucard support ended, TTI completely abandoned the US market I’m surprised it lasted as long as it did, honestly There are many different HuCard and CD playing hardware configurations. The regular Duo was just one of them. It was made to promote the new Super CD format. There are also Laserdisc PC Engine games, but they're not a successor either. 1994 was well into the 32-bit generation and Hudson had only created TTi as fan service. By 1994 the North American market had already received a disproportionately higher number of games for the market than Japan ever would.
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Post by spenoza on Nov 8, 2020 1:01:36 GMT
Even NEC and Hudson backed off the card medium in favor of CDs. That said, I do agree the base console could have had more development. More mappers like the SF2 mapper would have helped greatly. Hmm Hucard lasted from 1987 till 1994 right? Thats basically the whole console gen.. The DUO/R seems like it was considered to be the successor to the PCE console. But it seems like releases slowed down at that point anyway... when Hucard support ended, TTI completely abandoned the US market I’m surprised it lasted as long as it did, honestly I meant that HuCard development slowed as CD development ramped up. While there were more HuCard-capable units, as the PC Engine started losing ground to the SNES developers likely saw the CD medium as a cheaper way to compete.
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nopepper
Deep Blooper
Posts: 21
Fave PCE Shooter: Lords of Thunder
Fave PCE Platformer: Legendary Axe
Fave PCE Game Overall: Dracula X
Fave PCE RPG: Ys I & II
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Post by nopepper on Nov 8, 2020 6:20:27 GMT
I've never had the impression that the PC-Engine is only the CD version of it, but I think that the generation I come from plays a role in that. Millenials and younger were not exposed to the console from the get-go, so they didn't get to experience the evolution of the hardware as it transitioned to the new media. This might be the "people" you are referring to as thinking the PCE is only the CD system.
In addition, from a hardware perspective, if you are getting into the PCE, then ensuring you also have access to the CD library makes the most sense, since it has a lot of great games you can't play otherwise, so the majority of people will choose a Duo or the CDROM add on, and perhaps start with the CD games, since they might be perceived as being more advanced by the inexperienced players.
For me, during the 16 bit days, I owned a Genesis, and later also added a SNES. It was not until the late 90s that I was able to afford getting into the PCE, at which point it made the most sense to get a Duo and have access to most of the library. At that point, the games I always wanted to play were both hucard and cd format, with Blazing Lazers, Legendary Axe, Military Madness, Soldier Blade, Y's, GoT, LoT, Rondo, etc. all receiving equal attention.
With all that said, I love the hucard format, and I especially like the chip tune soundtracks, so I always opt for the chip versions of Raiden, Side Arms, RType and Daisenpuu. My impression is that this is not a rare sentiment, as the PCE's sound chip also has gotten more and more recognition recently, as retro/vintage game enthusiasts are becoming more educated on things outside of Nintendo and Sega.
So no, I don't think there is a general sentiment that the stock PCE is underrated, it's just inexperience, combined with the pragmatism of the majority of the gaming populace.
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Post by turboxray on Nov 8, 2020 6:52:23 GMT
I mean without the CD add on. People like to talk like the CD add on is just part of the system, they call CD games simply PC Engine games so often, omitting the fact that its a CD. It seems that the PCE CD “is” the PC Engine to a lot of people. It’s almost like the original console has been erased in the minds of these people.. .. Why? What is wrong with it? Is the base PC Engine so lacking that you MUST own a CD drive to enjoy it? Personally I would rather play Super Star Soldier than Nexzr, and I’d rather play Raiden with the chip music. And many other good hucard titles. PC Engine is a great console! The PC-Engine is both hucard and CD games. It's not simply one or the other, but both. That's something unique to the PCE. Some people have a hard time understanding/embracing it, and others (those of us that followed it from hucard to CD for its whole life span) simply understand it. PCE CD music is also something very special for that era. It's very much 'game' music. It's quite a bit different than say stuff in the later gen CD consoles. The base sound chip is capable of some great stuff, and was never fully utilized, but there's a lot of average at best stuff out there for it. I only particularly find the standout chip tunes interesting. Raiden hucard version is not one of them haha.
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a
Deep Blooper
Posts: 40
Fave PCE Shooter: 1943 Kai
Fave PCE Platformer: what's a platformer?
Fave PCE RPG: No.
Currently Playing: Soldier Blade Special
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Post by a on Nov 8, 2020 8:50:57 GMT
PCE fan logic: PCE CD doesn't have enough extra chips in it, so it’s not a real unique console platform.
Sega CD has lots of chips, so it’s obviously it’s a real console
Nobody calls famicom disk system games simply “famicom games”
lol
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Post by SignOfZeta on Nov 8, 2020 14:07:44 GMT
Whereas most console disc drives were add relatively doomed add-ons, the PCE was designed to be part of the system from the beginning. Eventually SuperCDs would be the most popular format for the system. By 1992 HuCARDs were pretty much only for Bomberman and Momotaro games they wanted max sales from (and probabky work better on HuCARD anyway, like SFII’). It may be worth pointing out that while the CDROM was expensive, PCE games were sometimes HALF the price of a SFC game and even cheaper than Megadrive a lot so after a dozen games it paid for itself.
If you’re playing PCE from 1989 you can make it all about cards. You can‘t play Ys, Dracula X, Tengai Makyou, or hardly any of the RPGs and chick sims that would eventually define the second half of the system’s life. When I got my US Duo in 1992 the current focus was the TTI era and they made few HuCARDs. HuCARDs were probabky less than %10 of the games release in either territory that year. Conversely, there was no Mega CD game that was the Mega Drive game of the year. All the major games were carts. The best selling game on PCE, whatever it is, is a CD.
HuCARDs *themselves* are very underrated. People assume CDs can do anything cards can do and it’s not true. Bomberman 94’, Street Fighter II, and other games would suffer somewhat as CDs. I also appreciate the lack of loading. After a while though it was mainly just a smaller ROM in a more expensive package so it was ditched when the fans stopped buying it.
How do you get them back on the farm after they’ve seen Snatcher?
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Post by spenoza on Nov 8, 2020 14:23:50 GMT
I think the “adds extra chips or capabilities” argument is not a strong one. Much stronger is that NEC had the CD in mind from launch. The CD format was an intended component of the system’s ecosystem from step one (as far as NEC was concerned, anyway). And due to the sheer size of the CD library, it’s hard not to consider the “base” PC Engine a somewhat incomplete system.
However, there is a strong argument that total CD unit sales were simply not that high compared to the card-only units. It’s hard to find reliable numbers, but the best I have found suggests that across all regions the Mega CD/Sega CD actually slightly outsold, or at least tied, with PCE CD and Duo units. Now, PCE CD unit sales were heavily concentrated in Japan and Sega’s CD unit sales were probably higher in Europe and the US, but I still think that this is a meaningful counter-argument.
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Post by turboxray on Nov 8, 2020 18:11:28 GMT
PCE fan logic: PCE CD doesn't have enough extra chips in it, so it’s not a real unique console platform. Sega CD has lots of chips, so it’s obviously it’s a real console Nobody calls famicom disk system games simply “famicom games” lol The 'chips' argument, on both sides, it because if you upgrade the system enough, when does it not become something more than what it originally was? The SegaCD only needs a RAMDAC and it would be a complete system on its own - it has everything it needs; processor, video graphics blitter, dedicated 8 channel sound chip, etc. The PC-Engine games on hucard, and on CD, are core PC-Engine games. What changed is the medium, but all the strength of the PC-Engine drives both games. There's nothing different about CD games that gives addition system power(and as stated it actually adds some limitations that hucards do not). So from that perspective, both mediums remain true to the core. The famicom disk system really isn't any different than the PCE and the CD unit, from the above perspective, but there are two things the famicom disk system does not have; it was never designed from the start of the console (the CD unit for the PCE was being design before the PCE was actually released), and it never took over as the dominate medium for the system. The PCE was clearly designed as a 'core' system. My god man, have you not seen what pins are available on the back bus??! And in no other consoles' history, has one medium completely replace the core medium. CD games replaced hucards. The problem, is that gamers have a very biased ethnocentric view of things. Genesis fans claim snes 'cheated' because of 'addon chips'. Most of the opponents of the NES claim 'mappers' shouldn't count as the systems base advantage/specs. Why? Simply because their beloved system(s) didn't have that advantage (the NES video memory address lines being on the card makes it very special in the console world - even small home computer world). So the problem people have with including hucard and CD games as "PCE games" as a whole, is that they're trying to fit PCE's unique history and design into whatever game world perspective they grew up with (in order for it to make sense to them). The problem is compounded by retro gamers getting into PCE games, but also going the cheaper route and only buying a 'core' system. In the end, no matter how you want to draw dividing lines (be it tech and compatibly that it adds, or whatever) - nothing will cut the PCE library as "PCE games, and then there's PCE CD games", except ignorance. This argument has been done a dozen or more times before, with much more in-depth points to prove the PCE library otherwise. And every point had a valid counter argument. I mean, this isn't some revisionist history going on. BITD, if I said "PCE games" in no way did it ever exclude the CD library, for people that actually experienced the system as a whole BITD. And I think here in the North America, that was even more prevalent to Turbo gamers when the Turbo Duo replaced the TG16 and TGCD.
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Post by dshadoff on Nov 8, 2020 22:08:40 GMT
It was always about costs. Memory costs drove the price of games in the cartridge era, and initially CDROM was intended to add new features which weren't present - rather than a MIDI module, why not have digital sound ?
The cost of pressing CDs in volume (i.e. > 1,000) was lower than HuCard from the very start. This became the driving force; once Ys was out, consumers saw CD as a way to get premium quality games at a similar price to regular games. And that drove a lot of people to the platform.
Simultaneously, other companies saw this as a way to redirect sales dollars into the games (rather than manufacturing), so they built more lush environments and longer games. This was also a ploy to get greater exposure in the sales market - a lush game will get more attention than a "blah" game, and therefore will drive more sales. This sliding scale isn't infinite, but it drove studios to create CDROM games.
Couple that with the idea that the CDROM was an available part of the machine for all but the first ~2 years, and you can assume that anybody who doesn't have a CDROM, is thinking about getting one. This was not the case in Sega-land, where there was a greater amount of time between original console and CDROM add-on, and less stress on the CDROM add-on from the beginning.
This is not to say that the HuCard is an invalid medium, but most people who have a PCEnigne also have a CDROM, and the cost of manufacturing (in quantities of 1,000 or more) is *still* cheaper for CDROM. Of course, if you want to cater to TurboExpress users, you would need to create a HuCard...
And there would be a certain novelty in publishing a HuCard game these days, but there are concrete limits on how much you can pack inside of it without creating additional mappers, which requires addiitonal development effort (and would reduce your potential market, as emulators wouldn't initially support the new mappers).
But going back to the original topic, perhaps the base system is indeed underrated, as there really were quite a few really good games for it - lots of shooters, Bomberman, and so on...
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