|
Post by spenoza on Jan 14, 2020 17:14:06 GMT
I'd like to address something relevant to this forum. The PC Engine / TurboGrafx 16 scene has a long history, but as time has gone onward, bad behavior and long-running feuds have developed and simmered, sometimes erupting into open conflict. I know that many of the folks here participate in other PCE-focused forums, chats, and communities and have long histories with each other, and you can't just hop to a new forum and that all goes away. But this forum arose out of a need for increased civility, as the previous primary stopping point for PCE fans had gone for years largely unmoderated (except for extreme abuses) and ultimately blew up under the weight of an unchecked toxic personality. And even though a single person dealt the final blow, a critical failure was inevitable, given how things were headed.
I'm part of that long history. I cut my teeth on the Turbo List way back and, after a hiatus in Sega Saturn land, ultimately found myself back in the PC Engine scene. So I've seen a lot of this develop over the decades. As such, I'm inherently biased. Even with that, however, I'd like this place to not get mired in the baggage this scene tends to lug around on its back. I'd like everyone to ask themselves if bringing those long-running feuds into this space does newbies, or the scene as a whole, any favors. You should almost never find yourself answering, "Yes."
We do police tone, here. Tone policing can be a bad word in some corners of the internet. And if we're policing tone in conversations about race or gender or stuff like that, that's a problem. Those are also discussions that most likely don't belong on this forum (except in very narrow circumstances). So even if you've been wronged, keep things civil and take it to PMs. Don't wait for it to get bad. If you're feeling put-upon, bring it up with a mod ASAP. Flameouts and public spats spread personal disputes around to other people who maybe aren't involved and maybe don't want to be involved. They also can spread like real fires, and divide people up into camps that take sides. Be aware that condescension and haughtiness can be problematic as well. Old disputes don't have a place here, and new disputes (including those that are built on old disputes) need to go to PM and get dealt with quickly.
In short, be nice, even when you don't want to be. Don't treat others as you want to be treated. Treat others as THEY want to be treated. All of you are awesome people. I love all the insights and opinions you share. Let's keep things awesome as long as we can.
|
|
DutchDimension
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 122
Homebrew skills: Pixel, 2D and 3D art
Fave PCE Shooter: Override
Fave PCE Platformer: Mizbak's Adventure
Fave PCE Game Overall: Too many to choose from
Fave PCE RPG: Ys series
|
Post by DutchDimension on Jan 14, 2020 17:59:47 GMT
Thanks for posting this Spenoza. I strongly dislike any forms of disrespectful, crass, and aggressive behavior. Glad to see this forum takes a strong stance against it.
|
|
|
Post by SignOfZeta on Jan 14, 2020 22:13:47 GMT
So should I just leave now? I ask because I have no idea WTF tone policing is and therefore I assume it’s something I’m quite weak against.
|
|
|
Post by spenoza on Jan 15, 2020 0:01:49 GMT
Basically, the tone or tenor with which you make a statement or argument is important, not just the content of the argument. Tone policing is often used to shut down minorities, for example, because they won’t have a “calm” or “civil” discussion about their right not to be killed by police. But our discussions here are not that kind of critical discussion. So since our arguments and discussions are not about victimizing entire groups of people, but rather vidja games and such, it is perfectly appropriate to expect people not to be hysterical or assholes. So basically, being right is not a way to get around having to be a decent human being, at least for most topics of discussion appropriate to this forum.
|
|
|
Post by lukester on Jan 15, 2020 14:14:11 GMT
having to be a decent human being Ugh, just say person. It's some weird liberal thing to call oneself a human being
|
|
|
Post by spenoza on Jan 15, 2020 15:38:26 GMT
having to be a decent human being Ugh, just say person. It's some weird liberal thing to call oneself a human being Nothing “liberal” about my use of the term. That’s just the way I say that phrase.
|
|
|
Post by Arkhan on Jan 15, 2020 15:48:51 GMT
im not a human.
but yeah I mean I get the sentiment, but unless all of us are collectively going to admit assholery, and call a cease fire and make proper amends instead of pretending things didn't happen in the ways that they did, the whole things kind of folly and fails to hold people accountable.
|
|
|
Post by SignOfZeta on Jan 15, 2020 21:08:05 GMT
I don’t get it. Am I in trouble or not? Who is? Just name some bad apple so we know what your “tone” threshold is.
If we’re going to go full AOL chat I think some of us should just self delete now and save time. If we’re taking about just not being Nintega then just ban him. I’m not here to cause a fight or anything but think of what you just posted. You just gave a almost Soviet-esque announcement that we’re all on watch for something you’ve done a bad job (IMO) of describing. I don’t know how to...harmonize our tonality...without a tuning fork or something. The radar gun is on me but I don’t know the speed limit until the ticket comes in the mail or doesn’t.
“Don’t piss me off” is what you said pretty much. All tone and no content. I don’t know how to comply. I’m not here to fight with anyone, too busy these days, but I feel like I’m doomed to end up on the bad side of any policy with such...let’s face it, completely subjective and totally unquantifiable personal thresholds of misbehavior.
And yes, the drippingly predictable answer to this is “Don’t you know how to be a good person?” or some thing like that. No, the answer is no. I don’t qualify people as “good” or “evil” to much extent in general and I don’t really care about other people’s “tone” whatever but even if I did I don’t know exactly what your definition is of a “decent person” is. Lots of people think I’m extremely decent and some people hate my guts but I’m the same person. I don’t know who I’m in the room with here...
|
|
|
Post by spenoza on Jan 15, 2020 21:46:32 GMT
This wasn't posted to target any individuals, but is rather a reminder to everyone that HOW you say something is important. It isn't enough to be "right". It is impossible to be too specific about tone because it is a somewhat subjective standard. It is impossible to have thoroughly objective standards on a forum. Subjectivity always plays into human interactions, and trying to too narrowly and precisely define it is folly. But some general guidance includes things like: Don't flame people. Don't be a sexist, racist douche. Don't deliberately antagonize folks, and if you inadvertently do, agree to disagree and don't just keep pushing. If what you post is frequently misunderstood or the way you post seems to be frequently misinterpreted, consider the possibility that some introspection about your communication style might be in order.
None of that means people are going to get Mod Slapped for being grumpy or prickly occasionally. In fact, none of this is to suggest that the moderation standards are changing in any way. I will continue to mod in the same way I have (I seem to be the only active mod at present) unless Paul tells me I'm doing it wrong. None of this is new development. Have I PMed you with moderator guidance? Yes? Take that guidance to heart. No? Keep on keeping-on in accordance with the forum rules.
|
|
|
Post by _jash on Jan 17, 2020 16:54:07 GMT
I think of the pce forumite community as a great place with games of the month, raffles, IRL gatherings (Turbo Fest), stories, paint drawings, trades and sales, and laughs. You want to look at something that is likely 10% (or less) of our history in "bad behavior" and "long-running feuds" and focus on it? Then it'll likely become the focus of others and create a much bigger issue than it truly is. I get the sentiment as well Speno, basically let's not allow all the fueds and bad vibes carry over into our forums here from where we came. This is like a new beginning and a chance for everyone to share our stories, our gaemz, and our ideas and the such. However our PCE Community is small and scattered. We do get occasional new members here and there, but for a large portion it's all the same obeyers that came over from PCenginefx.com's, before that Turbo2k.net's, or magicengine.com's forums or hell maybe even the Turbo Turnpike. It's no surprise to anyone that bad transactions/scams, bad vibes, flame wars, and close friends/cliqs will follow us over into a new gathering place. You want to generate new members while still carrying over a large part of an established community, and think that over policing the forums is a good idea? Based on newer members that have come in and enjoyed the scene, they tend to find their place and grow with us. I think a little jab that you made (that perhaps wasn't your intention) about how badly moderated pcefx was prior to NW's implosion wasn't really necessary. I get that this place is under a far more watchful eye than the other place is, but that almost felt bitter. Might be unpopular opinion, but I liked how Necro was keeping the forums moderated in a lighter tone only interjecting when absolutely necessary. Maybe meeting somewhere in the middle where a little bit of handholding here and there is ok, but really let the place run itself organically. I think over time he has gotten better at shutting things down when they got out of hand, and kept spam bots at bay pretty well. Remember, it was his first gig as a mod and he was doing the extra work as a favor to the guys after turning down the idea for years. These announcements on how people should act seem like overkill and I feel like they'll hurt the gathering spot more than help it. But that's just my completely unnecessary opinion, lol
|
|
|
Post by monstersgoboom on Jan 17, 2020 18:20:10 GMT
I like the sentiment, as A poor innocent fool who sparked an utter shitstorm for simply asking questions about Audio it's appreciated. I mean if new members to the forum have to deal with invisible landmines and can't really post a genuine question without people "going off" then maybe it's a good time to remind folks to try and be a bit better towards others, especially new folks. it should be unnecessary but clearly that's not the case.
|
|
|
Post by dshadoff on Jan 17, 2020 18:37:26 GMT
Based on _jash and signofzeta’s comments, I’m going to assume that they didn’t observe an intervention earlier this week. If that is the case, then spenoza has done his job well.
Anytime a moderator needs to be involved in a situation, I would expect a blanket reminder statement to come out as a result. So if you see one and you weren’t personally contacted, you should feel secure, but recognize that somebody else may have stepped over the line. It’s best not to dwell on it once dealt with. And I’m sure that even if you were contacted about such behavior, you’d be given another chance.
Regarding your comments about moderation needing to be a light touch, I agree - if everybody is behaving themselves, there is no need to do anything. And I think spenoza has indeed stayed clear in normal circumstances, because 99% of the time, everybody is great.
If you are advocating that there is no need for moderation because nobody ever steps over the line, then I would have to respectfully disagree. I, for one, enjoy the fact that this forum is expected to be civil (and almost always is), but I’ll be honest: if I felt that there was too much conflict, I would leave to find another place. I’m sure that newcomers are even less connected than I am to the site, and would leave even more readily.
|
|
|
Post by monstersgoboom on Jan 17, 2020 18:47:32 GMT
Based on _jash and signofzeta’s comments, I’m going to assume that they didn’t observe an intervention earlier this week. If that is the case, then spenoza has done his job well. Anytime a moderator needs to be involved in a situation, I would expect a blanket reminder statement to come out as a result. So if you see one and you weren’t personally contacted, you should feel secure, but recognize that somebody else may have stepped over the line. It’s best not to dwell on it once dealt with. And I’m sure that even if you were contacted about such behavior, you’d be given another chance. Regarding your comments about moderation needing to be a light touch, I agree - if everybody is behaving themselves, there is no need to do anything. And I think spenoza has indeed stayed clear in normal circumstances, because 99% of the time, everybody is great. If you are advocating that there is no need for moderation because nobody ever steps over the line, then I would have to respectfully disagree. I, for one, enjoy the fact that this forum is expected to be civil (and almost always is), but I’ll be honest: if I felt that there was too much conflict, I would leave to find another place. I’m sure that newcomers are even less connected than I am to the site, and would leave even more readily. Sorry I meant it shouldn't be necessary to remind folks to be a bit chill, but in that instance it clearly was. As a newb to this forum I definitely considered just moving to another platform/forum, in general the forum has been helpful though and the PCE is a bunch of fun to hack on.
|
|
|
Post by dshadoff on Jan 17, 2020 19:07:40 GMT
Sorry monstersgoboom, you submitted your comment while I was still writing mine. I was addressing the previous comments.
|
|
|
Post by _jash on Jan 17, 2020 19:20:58 GMT
Based on _jash and signofzeta’s comments, I’m going to assume that they didn’t observe an intervention earlier this week. If that is the case, then spenoza has done his job well. I really didn't know of any type of intervention happening here at all. I looked around and found page 4 of this thread. Is this what you're talking about? I think Spenzo handled it just fine by apologizing for some off colour comments, but I'd hardly call that a need for any more attention, especially creating a thread for everyone by the forum police. Maybe there was worse? Threads deleted? A banning? I'm pretty clue free.
|
|