fragmare
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 116
Homebrew skills: Graphics, Music, Level Design, Annoying Programmers
|
Post by fragmare on Apr 7, 2019 7:05:18 GMT
Man! No Deflemask updates, no Huzak... I guess everybody wanting to create PCE chip music is just fucked, then. It's almost like somebody needs to create an open source PCE sound driver for Deflemask modules or something... oh wait... Squirrel doesn't work without some local changes to it if you're using the new HuC, but it was a valid option for a lot of people before the HuC 3.99 changes that seemed to bring success to those who could use MML to make their music happen. I wonder if Squirrel has this pop you're talking about? Have you messed with MML? Is it not a viable option for your needs? No, Squirrel isn't really a viable option. Nor is it for the chiptune community, at large. Squirrel might do it too, for all i know. If it's HuC based, it probably will. It's not a "pop", so much as it an outright silent GAP between the wavetables (which should not be there, if the update routine was properly coded anyway).
|
|
|
Post by gredler on Apr 7, 2019 9:14:20 GMT
Is the reason squirrel is not viable that it's MML based, or something else? Yuzo Koshiro apparently uses MML, and recently released his PC-88 tools; onitama.tv/mucom88/Maybe this is helpful for creating a PCE toolset?
|
|
fragmare
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 116
Homebrew skills: Graphics, Music, Level Design, Annoying Programmers
|
Post by fragmare on Apr 7, 2019 17:16:47 GMT
Is the reason squirrel is not viable that it's MML based, or something else? Yuzo Koshiro apparently uses MML, and recently released his PC-88 tools; onitama.tv/mucom88/Maybe this is helpful for creating a PCE toolset? I don't use MML. Nobody in the chiptune community really uses MML. If Yuzo uses MML, great for him... I'm not Yuzo lol. I'm mainly talking about ROM output from Deflemask. Like I said, there needs to be an open source (think Github) PCE sound engine with the ability to convert DMF modules or existing HES files into valid, properly playing ROM images. One *does* already exist, but it seems progress has halted without any binary or source being released. Nor will it likely ever, I'm guessing. Probably because a certain somebody had their nose stuffed way up Michirin9801's ass, and Michirin got ran out of the PCEFX forum (and Deflemask forum/discord) for being generally obnoxious, sooo... i'm guessing they're probably butthurt about it lol Either way... can't wait on vaporware. I'll be dead before anything gets released.
|
|
|
Post by spenoza on Apr 7, 2019 17:46:01 GMT
Can we not throw shade in here just because folks have different priorities?
|
|
fragmare
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 116
Homebrew skills: Graphics, Music, Level Design, Annoying Programmers
|
Post by fragmare on Apr 7, 2019 18:09:42 GMT
Can we not throw shade in here just because folks have different priorities? It's not about "different priorities", it's about not hoarding information and giving that information back to the community, so they can actually DO something with it instead of just sit on it for years... particularly for petty, passive aggressive reasons. In a small, niche community, like this one, there is literally *ZERO* reason to not have open source tools. If you're not ever going to finish it, then give it to someone else who will...
|
|
|
Post by gredler on Apr 7, 2019 18:10:47 GMT
Sad to hear that Michirin9801'a absence was due to drama. I was unaware and had assumed Michirin9801 was just too busy working on personal projects to be involved with the community - that person seemed to create a lot of content and was barreling down some sort of overarching project. I was never present for obnoxious behavior, but the amount of work that Mirichin9801 put in seemed very impressive at the time so I am sorry to hear that involvement dropped out. In a PM asking elmer about what we do with some Deflemask our aspiring musician and sound guy jfrost put together for us he mentioned that other projects are higher priority and taking too much time for him to get to Huzak for a bit longer. I am with Spenoza on this one, and think that being civil and appreciative of one another is the minimal effort to keep this tiny community ball rolling. We are all mostly doing this for education and fun, so bringing in emotion and drama seems diminishing rather than encouraging to progress. If you're implying that Elmer has bailed on huzak because of Mirichin980's absence I would suggest contacting him directly about your questions rather than passively aggressively attacking his appreciation for one of the most, if not the most, productive musicians on the pce deflemask scene afaik.
|
|
fragmare
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 116
Homebrew skills: Graphics, Music, Level Design, Annoying Programmers
|
Post by fragmare on Apr 7, 2019 18:41:55 GMT
Sad to hear that Michirin9801'a absence was due to drama. I was unaware and had assumed Michirin9801 was just too busy working on personal projects to be involved with the community - that person seemed to create a lot of content and was barreling down some sort of overarching project. I was never present for obnoxious behavior, but the amount of work that Mirichin9801 put in seemed very impressive at the time so I am sorry to hear that involvement dropped out. In a PM asking elmer about what we do with some Deflemask our aspiring musician and sound guy jfrost put together for us he mentioned that other projects are higher priority and taking too much time for him to get to Huzak for a bit longer. I am with Spenoza on this one, and think that being civil and appreciative of one another is the minimal effort to keep this tiny community ball rolling. We are all mostly doing this for education and fun, so bringing in emotion and drama seems diminishing rather than encouraging to progress. If you're implying that Elmer has bailed on huzak because of Mirichin980's absence I would suggest contacting him directly about your questions rather than passively aggressively attacking his appreciation for one of the most, if not the most, productive musicians on the pce deflemask scene afaik. Michirin made a lot of people unhappy in the Deflemask community with their elitism and narrow minded approach for making PCE music. There was "Michirin's way" and the "wrong way", nothing else computed for Michirin. When you start telling people they're "doing it wrong", but they're getting great sounding results... are they really doing it wrong? Or just not doing it the way YOU want them to do it? There's a big difference. Not everybody composes chiptune music the same way... Michirin could never recognize that. And it upset people, myself included... particularly when I saw new people, just starting to make PCE chiptunes, would quit before they ever had a chance to get good, due to Michirin's constant nit-picking and passive-aggressive behavior towards them. It was sad to watch. Could Huzak eventually get released? Possibly... but i wouldn't hold my breath. And if so, when? Two more years? Five years? Ten? Like I said, can't wait on vaporware, muh dude... Some talented people from the chiptune community i know have expressed interest in creating pretty much the exact same thing as Huzak (except making it an ACTUAL, for-real open source project). It'd just be nice to build upon already existing code, rather than start from scratch. But, i guess that's what happens when you have people sitting on "open source (but not really)" code for years. You can only have a carrot dangled in front of your face for so long before you looking for other carrots.
|
|
|
Post by gredler on Apr 7, 2019 18:55:57 GMT
The elitism/ego bug is an easy one to catch, sad to hear that was the impression that Mirichin980 left the community with considering how many good projects Mirichin980 created.
As far as this new crew joining to make sound drivers I say hell yeah! I've always been the "more the merrier" guy around here, so of course I'd say being them in!
Where are you chatting with them? Can you link them to these forums, or are there avenues for development conversation that I am missing? I would love to stay abreast of it.
Is the intent this to be used in homebrew via HuC?
Only shame I see here is that this introduces a third branch of music options. I always assume working together will get better and more complete results than separate projects, but what do I know.
|
|
fragmare
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 116
Homebrew skills: Graphics, Music, Level Design, Annoying Programmers
|
Post by fragmare on Apr 7, 2019 19:32:58 GMT
The elitism/ego bug is an easy one to catch, sad to hear that was the impression that Mirichin980 left the community with considering how many good projects Mirichin980 created. As far as this new crew joining to make sound drivers I say hell yeah! I've always been the "more the merrier" guy around here, so of course I'd say being them in! Where are you chatting with them? Can you link them to these forums, or are there avenues for development conversation that I am missing? I would love to stay abreast of it. Is the intent this to be used in homebrew via HuC? Only shame I see here is that this introduces a third branch of music options. I always assume working together will get better and more complete results than separate projects, but what do I know. Yea, it got to a point where people were quitting the Deflemask discord and joining my Atari Chiptunes discord server to chat about PCE chiptune stuff (not that i minded), but they were doing it because of Michirin and his/her/whatever's shitty attitude. Like, who do you think you are, exactly? The second coming of Jun Chikuma??? All you really do is covers, the same as I do, calm the fuck down lol. I finally ended up telling Michirin off, big time, and asking them to not comment on any more of my Youtube videos. Then I got a bunch of unexpected PMs from well known chiptuners agreeing with my assessment of Michirin's behavior. Michirin was basically acting is if they were the gatekeeper for new and budding PCE chiptune musicians... that ain't cool. New chiptuners need encouragement and constructive criticism, not torn down by someone they look up to. That's bullshit. And I call people out on their bullshit, once i catch a whiff... every. single. fuckin. time. It's not really a "crew", just a couple of people I know from the scene. It's mainly DeltaRazero, zeromus and myself who have expressed interest in this. We're usually in #mednafen on Freenode IRC and also the Deflemask Discord server. The intent is to make something that eats DMF (Deflemask module) files and poops out either .PCE roms, or .HES files that play the right damn way on a real PC-Engine (e.g., no excessive wavetable gaps or screwy white noise volume curves). And, yea, having a bunch of people working on essentially the same project, but all of them doing it separately, is... idiotic. Especially when there's mostly working source code already laid down by one of them, before the others even start. But, i guess for some narrow minded folks, their code is their preciousssssssssssssssssssss... even if it's just a tool that will benefit the community. Whatever, keep sittin' on that golden egg, mother goose... i doubt it's ever gonna hatch. lol
|
|
|
Post by spenoza on Apr 7, 2019 19:57:55 GMT
I think your assessment of why Elmer hasn’t released his music engine is off-base. Indeed, he has his fingers in many pies right now, and like many of us he probably has a life outside the forums. It is a shame his priorities for music don’t match yours right now, but he has no obligation to you on this front, just as you have no obligations to the folks asking you to compose some stuff for their games. Maybe I missed something, but it does really look like you’re annoyed at him for not kowtowing to your needs on your timetable. And I don’t know why that’s such an irritant for you. None of us are entitled to anyone else’s time and labor. If I have misread, please set me straight.
|
|
fragmare
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 116
Homebrew skills: Graphics, Music, Level Design, Annoying Programmers
|
Post by fragmare on Apr 7, 2019 21:57:15 GMT
I think your assessment of why Elmer hasn’t released his music engine is off-base. Indeed, he has his fingers in many pies right now, and like many of us he probably has a life outside the forums. It is a shame his priorities for music don’t match yours right now, but he has no obligation to you on this front, just as you have no obligations to the folks asking you to compose some stuff for their games. Maybe I missed something, but it does really look like you’re annoyed at him for not kowtowing to your needs on your timetable. And I don’t know why that’s such an irritant for you. None of us are entitled to anyone else’s time and labor. If I have misread, please set me straight. Where do you get that i'm irritated for Elmer not kowtowing to my needs? I have not asked Elmer for *any* kind of help, here. Nor will I ever. I know better than that, because I already know what the response will be. The glorious programmer master race typically doesn't assist dirty mongrel peasants, like me, anyway. What *is* irritating, however, is the fact that three people are about to undertake the EXACT same type of project as Huzak (a "mostly finished" 2 year old project that was supposed to be open source), and go over all the EXACT same ground that Elmer already has, and it doesn't have to be that way. Either finish it or release the unfinished source, so others can analyze and/or build upon it. Shit or get off the pot, if you will. Like I said, there is absolutely *ZERO* reason to not make tools and utilities open source in a small, niche community like this one. It's not like you're going to profit off of it. It only stands to benefit the community as a whole anyhow. You can make whatever arguments you like for "aLL tHe LoNg HaRd HoUrS" being put into a project, and... so fucking what? i spend long hard hours making chiptunes. i release the source (modules) for all of those. Even if it's just WIP I'll probably never finish. If somebody wants to cover the same song, or see how i made my instruments? Sure... here, take it. Take all my modules. Go nuts. If somebody in the pixel art scene wants to know exactly how i created a certain sprite or background, i will freely send *anybody* the WIP images. Any kind of level design i do, it's the same story. I'm enthusiastically willing to help others in this regard. And i do this because i like seeing people get better at doing something they're passionate about... which helps the scene, as a whole. So, yea, the whole "long hard hours" argument doesn't fly for me. I ain't buyin' it. It's about sharing helpful information and making the PCE scene a better (and more productive) place, rather than being obstinate and obstructive in order to placate one's own pride and/or ego... or whatever else might be driving said individual to just sit on information without sharing it. THAT'S what it's about...
|
|
|
Post by elmer on Apr 7, 2019 22:31:20 GMT
You're totally out of luck with Deflemask. The problem is baked-into the data format that it uses. No simple patch will fix that. That something that only Delek can fix, since he's the only one with the source code. While a simple patch would be useless, someone *could* probably write a filter program that would read in a Deflemask HES file, process it, and then spit out a file with different assembly-language HES code, and with the data organized a bit better so that the TIN instruction could be used. Man! No Deflemask updates, no Huzak... I guess everybody wanting to create PCE chip music is just fucked, then. Yeah, you must be right, there's obviously *no way* to create PCE music in Deflemask that actually sounds good. I must have imagined these ... Best of Michirin - Vol. 1Best of Michirin - Vol. 2Michirin's VGM covers 2018Squirrel doesn't work without some local changes to it if you're using the new HuC, but it was a valid option for a lot of people before the HuC 3.99 changes that seemed to bring success to those who could use MML to make their music happen. Remember "Squirrel" is the name of Arkhan's PC-based program that converts text files written in his variant of MML into something that the System Card's sound player can process. As Aetherbyte themselves say, the "Squirrel Player" itself is actually just a disassembled version of the PSG code that is in the System Card. AFAIK they didn't make any improvements to it in order to keep 100% compatibility with the System Card. That means that waveform uploads in the System Card/Squirrel Player use the following assembly-language (not HuC compiled) code (this source is from the Squirrel distribution) ... ;.......................................................................... ; load wave to psg. psgPtr1 is address of wave data. .loadWave
lda #PSG_DDA ; DDA bit in psg sta psg_ctrl ; turn psg off stz psg_ctrl ; reset psg to load wave ; I don't see why they didn't use block instruction....
cly ; y is byte count .sendByte lda [psgPtr1],y ; get value sta psg_wavebuf ; save in psg iny cpy #32 ; 32 bytes done ? bcc .sendByte ; nope, loop
That's 20 cycles-per-byte, so 640 cycles to upload a waveform. Approximately 3 times as fast as the HES code from Deflemask, but still 1/3 the speed of just using the TIN instruction (at 209 cycles). You can see that even TheOldMan commented in the source that using a loop in that way was a waste of CPU time. I wonder if Squirrel has this pop you're talking about? Have you messed with MML? Is it not a viable option for your needs? So, yeah, Squirrel is going to have a some blank time between waveforms ... just like Huzak does (but Huzak's are shorter). Squirrel doesn't work without some local changes to it if you're using the new HuC, but it was a valid option for a lot of people before the HuC 3.99 changes that seemed to bring success to those who could use MML to make their music happen. It is still an option for musicians, I was given permission to send out the version of Squirrel that is compatible with HuC 3.99 to anyone that asks for it. BUT ... and it's a big "but" for folks like fragmare ... the System Card player (and Squirrel) doesn't support samples. Is the reason squirrel is not viable that it's MML based, or something else? Yuzo Koshiro apparently uses MML, and recently released his PC-88 tools; onitama.tv/mucom88/Maybe this is helpful for creating a PCE toolset? That's really cool, and a wonderful thing to make available for MML fans and game-historians! But those tools are written for an FM-synth chip, such as the one in the PC-88/PC-98/MegaDrive. And, despite Arkhan's love of it, composing music in MML is a (painful) task that "chiptune" fans in the Western hemisphere never really found interesting/accessible.
|
|
|
fragmare
Punkic Cyborg
Posts: 116
Homebrew skills: Graphics, Music, Level Design, Annoying Programmers
|
Post by fragmare on Apr 7, 2019 23:38:04 GMT
Also, many of those renders on Bandcamp by your little buddy Michirin were ran through your super top secret pinky-promise password-only Huzak app, so the wavetable latency issue is not present. For the rest of us in the chiptune community *NOT* named Michirin... we unfortunately don't have that luxury. Michirin's Youtube recordings are done straight from Deflemask, which sounds "alright", but is inaccurate to how they would sound on real hardware (or Mednafen for that matter). Either way, you completely missed the sarcasm in my statement. r/woosh
|
|
|
Post by theoldman on Apr 7, 2019 23:44:26 GMT
Years later, I actually do understand why it was done. I tip my hat to the guys who wrote the original code....
The problem is that the tia instruction (and other block moves) delays interrupts. Since the original system player can run on the timer interrupt, you can't be sure exactly when it will occur in a frame. It could -potentially- stall an hsync interrupt, causing graphics glitches. I'm not 100% sure that it -would-, but it's nice defensive programming.
I'm not sure enough how the interrupts are prioritized to claim it would happen, just that the potential is there.
|
|